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Heirloom or not?

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Heirloom or not?

Post  JackieB999 on 1/14/2013, 10:35 am

I've been thinking about Heirloom seeds. I've purchased several of them already and began planting them. But I wondered if seeds have the same name, would they also be an heirloom seed as well?

For instance, Black Seeded Simpson lettuce. Some packets say Heirloom and some do not. If the original seed is modified in anyway, do they have to change the name on the packet to something else? If the answer is no, then it seems like a Black Seeded Simpson lettuce seed would always be an heirloom seed, no matter if it was marked that way on the package or not.

Any insight on this?

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/14/2013, 12:14 pm

I would look to the Latin name on the package. As an FYI, there is a GMO tomato now on the market with a trademarked name 'Heirloom'. Evil or Very Mad So beware!

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  Turan on 1/14/2013, 2:18 pm

My thought is that it only now has become popular to care if a plant variety has been around long enough to be called a heirloom. Heirloom is not part of the name really just describes a bit. Black seeded Simpson lettuce will vary a bit according to whose seed it is, but hopefully not enough to be a differnet variety. These things can get a bit gray along the edges.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  plantoid on 1/14/2013, 4:52 pm

I get the inpression that commercial outlets and seedmen are using the word heirloom if the seed is naturally grown over at least four years grow seasons with no real attempt at cross polination of the same sort of plant to make a F1 hybrid

My own heirloom seeds have never to the best of my knowledge ever been anywhere near a seedsman or a commercial enterprise . My seeds have been passed down form one gardener to another and selected from plants that have had the best attributes such as size, colour, flavour and occasionally high cropping rates .

My runner beans are from a very very old stock hand me down gardeners stock that commercials & seedsmen would hate ..... as they are highly disease resistant ,prolific croppers with 20 inch plus long bean pods , massive beans , plenty of flavour , they keep well in the fridge for 17 days or so plus they freeze exceedingly well and are still good in a reheated stew etc. But they don't fit in the commercial display boxes in the supermarkets and green grocers nor can they be easily mechanically harvested.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  bwaynef on 1/14/2013, 7:53 pm

@camprn wrote:As an FYI, there is a GMO tomato now on the market with a trademarked name 'Heirloom'. Evil or Very Mad So beware!

Where might I be able to read more about this 'Heirloom' gmo tomato?

http://myscienceacademy.org/2012/11/09/new-varieties-of-genetically-modified-tomatoes-coming-soon-to-a-grocery-near-you/

This says there aren't any GMO tomatoes on the market, but that there might be some coming to the grocer near you.


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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/14/2013, 8:31 pm

@bwaynef wrote:
@camprn wrote:As an FYI, there is a GMO tomato now on the market with a trademarked name 'Heirloom'. Evil or Very Mad So beware!

Where might I be able to read more about this 'Heirloom' gmo tomato?

http://myscienceacademy.org/2012/11/09/new-varieties-of-genetically-modified-tomatoes-coming-soon-to-a-grocery-near-you/

This says there aren't any GMO tomatoes on the market, but that there might be some coming to the grocer near you.

Thanks for the link bwaynef, I wish there was a date on it. Sometime in the pat two weeks I read about this new tomato seed called'Heirloom', I am still trying to find that information, that included email interaction with a company representative.... I will dig it up eventually. In the mean time here is a read to keep you all busy, Razz

http://www.grit.com/from-the-ethnobotanist/heirloom-tomatoes.aspx

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/14/2013, 9:10 pm

@camprn wrote:
@bwaynef wrote:
@camprn wrote:As an FYI, there is a GMO tomato now on the market with a trademarked name 'Heirloom'. Evil or Very Mad So beware!

Where might I be able to read more about this 'Heirloom' gmo tomato?

http://myscienceacademy.org/2012/11/09/new-varieties-of-genetically-modified-tomatoes-coming-soon-to-a-grocery-near-you/

This says there aren't any GMO tomatoes on the market, but that there might be some coming to the grocer near you.

Thanks for the link bwaynef, I wish there was a date on it. Sometime in the pat two weeks I read about this new tomato seed called'Heirloom', I am still trying to find that information, that included email interaction with a company representative.... I will dig it up eventually. In the mean time here is a read to keep you all busy, Razz

http://www.grit.com/from-the-ethnobotanist/heirloom-tomatoes.aspx
OK, I finally found it.
http://myfolia.com/groups/1-general-chit-chat/topics/7874-heirloom-f1-give-me-a-break/posts

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  Goosegirl on 1/15/2013, 8:08 am

@bwaynef wrote: http://myscienceacademy.org/2012/11/09/new-varieties-of-genetically-modified-tomatoes-coming-soon-to-a-grocery-near-you/

This says there aren't any GMO tomatoes on the market, but that there might be some coming to the grocer near you.


This is frightening on SO many levels! I envision a future of 'drug interactions' simply by combining the wrong GM foods into the same dish.....

GG

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  bwaynef on 1/15/2013, 9:02 am

@camprn wrote:
@bwaynef wrote:http://myscienceacademy.org/2012/11/09/new-varieties-of-genetically-modified-tomatoes-coming-soon-to-a-grocery-near-you/

Thanks for the link bwaynef, I wish there was a date on it.

From the URL, its probably safe to say it was in the latter part of 2012. See the bolded/emboldened above.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  Triciasgarden on 1/15/2013, 11:04 pm

Oh wow, this is scary!

I read a book (fiction) about a year or so ago where growers across the world ordered and grew GM seeds because they were cheaper. Some growers (very few) grew non-GM seeds even though they were more expensive and it really did put a strain on their finances. For some reason there was world-wide collapse of all the GM crops, like tomatoes appearing to grow really well and then they just split open and the insides were rotting, something like that. It happened to all the crops that were genetically modified and so there was a major food shortage. So anytime I read about genetically modified food, I think of this book. I will have to find the name of the book and the author. It was very well written and quite believable.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  Lavender Debs on 1/16/2013, 9:43 am

@camprn wrote:...snip.... As an FYI, there is a GMO tomato now on the market with a trademarked name 'Heirloom'. Evil or Very Mad So beware!

Home gardeners cannot buy GMO seed. Monsanto, the big GMO monster, bought the seed company Seminis. Seminis owned the name rights (like a copyright) to a number of heirloom seeds. Seminis sells seed to seed companies all across the US. For instance, you could buy Burpee's Big Boy tomato from the Burpee catalog but since Seminis owns the name or paten for Burpee's Big Boy you are putting money into Monsanto's pocket. Same goes for my (former) favorite cucumber, Marketmore 76. Seminis owns the patent for that heirloom or OP cucumber no matter what company you bought the seed from.

Home gardeners do not have access to GMO seed. Hybrid seed (F1) IS NOT GMO.

Where we can make a difference is at the grocery store. Ray and I do not buy products with corn (unless it is small farm organic) or high fructose corn syrup, sugar from beets (nearly 100% of sugar beets are GMO, to date pure cane sugar is GMO free), soy products (vegetable oils, dog foods, check labels for soy protein, it is in vegetarian protein drinks), canola/rapeseed oil is GMO. By products of the big GMO products (corn, soy, rapeseed which is sold as canola oil, sugar beets and coming soon, wheat) include dairy products (milk, cheese, ice cream), snacks (chips are made from corn and-or cooked in GMO soy/canola oil) ANYTHING that includes high fructose corn syrup.

You can see a list of Seminis seed (owned by Monsanto) on their web site.
.Seminis

You can also watch a recent video on the subject (lots of tech talk in the 1st 7 minutes, the end is a plea to stop shooting the messenger but sandwiched in the middle is great information


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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/16/2013, 10:03 am

@Lavender Debs wrote:
@camprn wrote:...snip.... As an FYI, there is a GMO tomato now on the market with a trademarked name 'Heirloom'. Evil or Very Mad So beware!

Home gardeners cannot buy GMO seed.
Not necessarily true, however that was not my point. The point I was making was the buyer should be aware that if something is labeled 'heirloom', it may not actually be an heirloom seed.

@Lavender Debs wrote:Home gardeners do not have access to GMO seed. Hybrid seed (F1) IS NOT GMO.

ATTRIBUTE® corn is indeed available, if you want to plant a lot. affraid It is GM.
http://www.harvestmansweetcorn.com/attribute.php
@Lavender Debs wrote:
Where we can make a difference is at the grocery store. Ray and I do not buy products with corn (unless it is small farm organic) or high fructose corn syrup, sugar from beets (nearly 100% of sugar beets are GMO, to date pure cane sugar is GMO free), soy products (vegetable oils, dog foods, check labels for soy protein, it is in vegetarian protein drinks), canola/rapeseed oil is GMO. By products of the big GMO products (corn, soy, rapeseed which is sold as canola oil, sugar beets and coming soon, wheat) include dairy products (milk, cheese, ice cream), snacks (chips are made from corn and-or cooked in GMO soy/canola oil) ANYTHING that includes high fructose corn syrup.

You can see a list of Seminis seed (owned by Monsanto) on their web site.
.Seminis

You can also watch a recent video on the subject (lots of tech talk in the 1st 7 minutes, the end is a plea to stop shooting the messenger but sandwiched in the middle is great information

Great info, thanks Deb. What a Face

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wow, great info!

Post  JackieB999 on 1/16/2013, 11:30 am

Thanks everyone, excellent info! I was worried about ending up with GMO seed by accident, but I see now that's not the case, at least not this year. I also loved the video link, it was very informative, thank you Smile I hope to end up with a tomato crop like his someday, awesome!

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  plantoid on 1/16/2013, 9:54 pm

@Goosegirl wrote:
@bwaynef wrote: http://myscienceacademy.org/2012/11/09/new-varieties-of-genetically-modified-tomatoes-coming-soon-to-a-grocery-near-you/

This says there aren't any GMO tomatoes on the market, but that there might be some coming to the grocer near you.


This is frightening on SO many levels! I envision a future of 'drug interactions' simply by combining the wrong GM foods into the same dish.....

GG
I wouldn't be too het up GG .

In todays UK edition ( 16 Jan ) , of " The Times " .

A guy who was a forerunner in the anti GM league has reassed his opposition and stated 1.5 trillion meals for humans using GM food .
No one has died or had strange birth defects.

He now says GM is greener than organic . There is less pollution with GM and less need for chemical pest control of any sort . Organic meat is often riddled with parasitic worms especially pork livers . Organic crops are not sustainable for large scale production any more due to the vageries of climate insects and bacterial/ fungal infections .
Apparently 11% of the agriculture of the world is now producing GM crops
The estimated population of the world will be over 9.5 billion by 2015 and he says that he is now aware that unless more GM is grown there will be zillions starving and fighting for crop space & water as in India Africa , Mexico and China etc. which will affect everyone in the world. he also said because of the better crops GM will be abkle to produce more crop for less space .

As you can gather he's had some pretty horrific press of a result of his recent new education and change of mind but I suspect in truth he is right .

One thing for sure is that GM pollen will be airborne all over the globe by now so no one is going to say hand on heart my crops are totally GM free if they think it through .
He also said that the UK & Europe are quickly becoming agricultural museums because of the anti GM ideas .. saying it is not the GM food that is the Frankenstein's monster but those who oppose GM

Food for thought indeed.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  NHGardener on 1/22/2013, 11:48 am

I'm getting my seed order ready to go here. It's quite a task.

Using Johnny's catalog, I've run into F1 again. I forget whether that's an okay thing. I know F1 means they are hybrids (I think), but is there any reason why we might not want to order a hybrid? I'd love all heirlooms, but it seems like the choices would be really limited.

And wouldn't it be nice if Fedco had photos in their catalog....

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/22/2013, 12:08 pm

@NHGardener wrote:I'm getting my seed order ready to go here. It's quite a task.

Using Johnny's catalog, I've run into F1 again. I forget whether that's an okay thing. I know F1 means they are hybrids (I think), but is there any reason why we might not want to order a hybrid? I'd love all heirlooms, but it seems like the choices would be really limited.

And wouldn't it be nice if Fedco had photos in their catalog....
F1 is a hybrid and is fine if you want to grow the variety. I grow a few F1 things. Disease resistance is usually greater with F1 varieties. you can save seed but it's a crap shoot that the next year fruit will be the same.

Yeah, Fedco is a bare bones catalog, but usually I can find photos of things on the web no problem. Have fun with your order!

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  NHGardener on 1/22/2013, 12:36 pm

I've been at this for over 2 hours so far... oy.

From now on, I am keeping detailed notes and histories of what I order so I don't have to re-do this every year. Live and learn. Laughing

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  pryz123 on 1/22/2013, 6:05 pm

Hi NHGardener,
There is nothing wrong with hybrids. I myself grow all heirlooms and open pollinated varieties though. But that is a personal choice. I like to save seeds and if you do it right the seeds you save from heirlooms and open pollinated varieties will be the same as the plant you got seeds from.
I was just wondering... you said you think that your choices would be limited. Have you checked out Baker Creek catalog or looked at seed savers exchange? There are humdreds of varieties of heirloom and open pollinated varieties of all shapes and colors and with unique flavors too. Wink

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  NHGardener on 1/22/2013, 6:55 pm

Well, a bunch here are putting in a group order to Fedco so I'm in with that, and then there are some things at Johnnys I wanted, so for now that's what I'm using. But I think what I need to do is get on these catalogs' mailing lists for next year. So thanks for that, I'll contact Baker Creek & SS. I think one problem is that the only catalog I have is Johnny's, and then I was trying to work off Fedco's .pdf online catalog with no photos... whew.

One thing with group ordering is you don't automatically get put on their catalog mailing list.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  sfg4uKim on 1/22/2013, 7:22 pm

I like what the video said about not being able to buy GMO seeds.

HOWEVER those of us that SELL seeds basically HAVE to put "non-GMO" on our labels or field a TON of questions why we don't sell non-GMO. LOL

I've gotten into several discussions on LinkedIn and it was quite unpopular when I asked "Non-GMOs? Hype? Scare tactic? Sales tool?"

Should we fight GMO feed? Yes! Should we insist on labeling? Yes! BUT we need to balance it.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  thegreatcob on 1/26/2013, 5:33 am

sfg4uKim only one online debate on gmo's,heirlooms, hybrids, open pollinated.
I lost count after first 50 or so.

Most can not ever define what an heirloom seed is or when term came into use.
with those basic terms and knowledge of gave of debating this stuff 3 years ago.
Since most newbies are hopeless confused on subject.

As for heirloom seeds the term was first used in early 1950's in several articles in reference to beans.
an article titled " Heirloom Beans" dated 1950 p 261 in the journal "Horticulture". by J. R. Hepler

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/26/2013, 9:16 am

@thegreatcob wrote: sfg4uKim only one online debate on gmo's,heirlooms, hybrids, open pollinated.
I lost count after first 50 or so.

Most can not ever define what an heirloom seed is or when term came into use.
with those basic terms and knowledge of gave of debating this stuff 3 years ago.
Since most newbies are hopeless confused on subject.

As for heirloom seeds the term was first used in early 1950's in several articles in reference to beans.
an article titled " Heirloom Beans" dated 1950 p 261 in the journal "Horticulture". by J. R. Hepler
I must point out a few things here... This thread is not the arena to debate the politics of GMO. The original poster was asking about seeds being Heirlooms, or not. There are other threads where one can debate GM organisms they can be found here http://squarefoot.creatingforum.com/f93-forum .This subforum was set up for members who have been on the forum enough to have posted a certain amount of times.

Cob, newbees are not hopeless about anything. They are here to learn and it would be a good thing for them to understand basic terms. We may help guide them to understanding. If someone is confused about the terms OP, heirloom or hybrid, they may learn a bit more here on the SFG forum, however we are not a professional research site for such things and certainly I would encourage those with more questions to do their own research on the web to expand their understanding.



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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  sfg4uKim on 1/26/2013, 9:43 am

Yes, you are right and I apologize. I was basically commenting on the video and didn't meant to take us on a tangent. Sorry.

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  camprn on 1/26/2013, 9:46 am

@sfg4uKim wrote:Yes, you are right and I apologize. I was basically commenting on the video and didn't meant to take us on a tangent. Sorry.
NO worries! Your post was appropriate in that you were talking about labeling your own seed packets Wink I hope it is all going well for you Kim!!!

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Re: Heirloom or not?

Post  thegreatcob on 1/26/2013, 1:57 pm

camprn is long time experienced gardeners or seeds companies can not agree on what the term heirloom vegetable means. I give newbies little chance understanding the term.

The best definition of heirloom vegetable is open pollinated variety created or available sale before 1943. the reason for the date is 1943 was first year mass produced hybrid be came commonly available to public.

As for those who live in UK the term heritage variety is used but with no well defined definition either.

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