Square Foot Gardening Forum

Hello Guest!
Welcome to the official Square Foot Gardening Forum.
There's lots to learn here by reading as a guest. However, if you become a member (it's free, ad free and spam-free) you'll have access to our large vermiculite databases, our seed exchange spreadsheets, Mel's Mix calculator, and many more members' pictures in the Gallery. Enjoy.


Search
 
 

Display results as :
 

 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Live and learn
by sanderson Today at 1:34 am

» 2016 SFG in Brooks, Ga
by sanderson Today at 1:28 am

» New Member
by countrynaturals Today at 1:18 am

» Mid-South: December 2016
by yolos Yesterday at 9:39 pm

» N&C Midwest: December 2016
by AtlantaMarie Yesterday at 9:01 pm

» 1st Seed Catalog Arrived :)
by AtlantaMarie Yesterday at 9:00 pm

» First season SFG results / lessons learned
by countrynaturals Yesterday at 8:59 pm

» Eat Broccoli Leaves? Brussels Sprouts? Cauliflower?
by countrynaturals Yesterday at 8:41 pm

» CANADIAN REGION: What are you doing December 2016
by Scorpio Rising Yesterday at 6:41 pm

» New England, December 2016
by Scorpio Rising Yesterday at 6:37 pm

» December 2016 Avatar: Show your Winter Season Colors!
by Scorpio Rising Yesterday at 6:03 pm

» Holy snow Batman!
by sanderson Yesterday at 5:46 pm

» Winter's Coming!
by plantoid Yesterday at 5:33 pm

» Senseless Banter...
by MrBooker Yesterday at 5:17 pm

» Dry versus fresh spices to infuse vinegar
by plantoid Yesterday at 5:02 pm

» Blanching and Freezing Vegetables
by sanderson Yesterday at 4:59 pm

» Your Christmas wish list?
by sanderson Yesterday at 4:29 pm

» SFG Adventure of a first time gardener in ND
by sanderson Yesterday at 4:14 pm

» Mid-Atl - Dec 2016 - Seed Catalog ?
by sanderson Yesterday at 4:12 pm

» TrolleyDriver's Compost Thermometer
by Kelejan Yesterday at 4:08 pm

» Second Year SFG in Canada
by trolleydriver Yesterday at 2:59 pm

» Fusion Life Brands Power XL pressure cooker
by CapeCoddess Yesterday at 2:39 pm

» Asia Region -Showcase of Gardens - Show Us Yours
by sanderson Yesterday at 2:14 pm

» December: What to plant in Northern California and Central Valley areas
by countrynaturals Yesterday at 1:13 pm

» Gardening in Central Pennsylvania
by countrynaturals Yesterday at 12:52 pm

» Winter Gardens - Photos
by sanderson Yesterday at 3:55 am

» Log In
by trolleydriver 12/1/2016, 5:23 pm

» Gnome Pumpkin Pie
by countrynaturals 12/1/2016, 1:22 pm

» Northern California & Coastal Valleys - What are you doing this month?
by countrynaturals 12/1/2016, 12:05 pm

» Greenhouse dreams
by trolleydriver 11/30/2016, 11:18 am

Google

Search SFG Forum

Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  Windmere on 6/22/2013, 11:50 am

Well, more specifically, my plants' veins.  Not really knowing any better, I applied a mixture of neem oil and peppermint soap to my seedlings quite regularly.  I continued this practice well into their young adulthood.  I wasn't aware of the negative issues neem oil presents.  I was actually following advice from a post in this forum.

However, what's done is done.  I noticed something quite interesting:  My plants are free of any pests.  Zilch.  Now, this might be a "honey moon" period.  Perhaps very bad things are to come. 

When I first began learning about neem oil, I did many Google searches.  I found the following website:

 http://www.discoverneem.com/neem-oil-insecticide.html

This website makes many claims.  I'm doubtful of some based on information you all have posted.  Camprn and Pollinator in particular have either posted  comments or posted links to websites containing information  contrary to claims in the "discoverneem.com" web site.

All that being said, in this website, under the heading "Neem oil works from inside the plant,"  the following claim is made:

"Neem oil breaks down very quickly, too. It is especially susceptible to UV light. But neem oil is also a systemic insecticide. That means you can pour it on the soil (not pure neem oil of course, you use a dilution or extract) and the plants absorb it. They take it up into their tissue, and it works from the inside. A leaf hopper may take a couple of bites, but that's it."

Experienced gardeners and newbies alike, please give me your opinion on this claim.  I am dubious, but then again, my plants are free from bad insects.  What's more, bees visit often so my veggies have bloomed flowers that have become baby tomatoes and baby watermelons.

thinking

Windmere

Male Posts : 1425
Join date : 2013-02-26
Age : 47
Location : Fayetteville, GA - Zone 7B - 8A

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  GaRedClay on 6/22/2013, 1:35 pm

I'm in your area, and the weather this spring has been very wet and cool here.
I haven't had any reason to use any type of insect pest control in my garden yet.
In years past I have noticed wet years there just are less pest.. I reckon it has something to do with the moths breeding cycle.. but thats just a guess..

GaRedClay

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-01-26
Location : zone 7

View user profile

Back to top Go down

At least something was good about our weather

Post  Windmere on 6/22/2013, 1:54 pm

Hi GaRedClay,

Thanks very much for your comments (I like your user name by the way!).  I think you are on to something in mentioning our weather.  As you say, perhaps insects experienced a set back with all the cold and wet conditions.  I've taken a look at the forecast, and we are expected to have isolated/scattered thunder storms tomorrow through Saturday.

Overall, our weird weather has been a pain in the tookus, but maybe it has a silver lining.  Hope you have much success in your gardening.~

Wind

Windmere

Male Posts : 1425
Join date : 2013-02-26
Age : 47
Location : Fayetteville, GA - Zone 7B - 8A

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  GaRedClay on 6/22/2013, 3:58 pm

I'm afraid I have bad news this time. I just came in from checking my catalpa worm

trees and there are caterpillars in the trees now.. so don't put up the pesticides yet.

if they are in the trees when the garden pest moths will laying their eggs too..

GaRedClay

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-01-26
Location : zone 7

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  jazzycat on 6/22/2013, 6:33 pm

Windmere, neem is a natural pesticide that is actually good for the plants.  (I know camprn disagrees with this, but from everything I've researched about it, it's true.  It's used pretty extensively in India, and it's even used in toothpaste.)  

I know someone personally who swears by it and uses it and his plants thrive.  It's also apparently very good for the soil microbes.  

If you have frogs or amphibians in your garden area, it's probably best not to use it, as they ingest things through their skin.  I have found no authority that can tell me positively that spraying my plants would hurt the frogs, but I have a multitude of frogs at my house, so I can't use it because I don't want to take the chance of injuring them.  

I'm curious, you said you've been using it on your plants, and you have no insects, but "whats done is done."  Have you seen some detrimental effects?

jazzycat

Posts : 596
Join date : 2013-03-12
Location : Savannah, GA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  RoOsTeR on 6/22/2013, 7:32 pm

@jazzycat wrote:Windmere, neem is a natural pesticide that is actually good for the plants.  (I know camprn disagrees with this, but from everything I've researched about it, it's true. 

How is neem good for the plants? Are you saying it acts like a fertilizer or adds nutrients to the growing medium or what? I guess I'm a bit confused  thinking 


@jazzycat wrote:It's also apparently very good for the soil microbes.  

How so?

____________________________


I am my gardens worst enemy.

RoOsTeR

Forum Administrator

Male Posts : 3879
Join date : 2011-10-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  sanderson on 6/22/2013, 9:06 pm

Windmere,  You asked for comments but I'm still nervous to respond.  I respect the rights of others to do things their way. Here's my 2 cents.

The words "natural pesticide" have always concerned me.  Neem oil is a "natural pesticide" that is used in a lot of ways in India.  But, this is also a country that uses lead in some medicines, including stomach aches for children and for fertility in women.  Lead is "naturally" occurring in some areas, in some clays.  But it is a poison.  It is a poison to bones and soft tissues, especially the nervous system.  I worked over 11 years in the Childhood Lead Poisoning Prevention Program and personally worked with families with severely, moderately and no obviously damaged children.  Most of the time the child looked fine, but when they started school, the damage became evident.  Mainly in abstract thinking.  One child that was lead poisoned in India via folk medicine could not walk at 3.  An Asian child was given folk medicine with lead and it was a miracle they were alive.  Another child could not count their age when they were six.  The damages from lead is irreversible so every child I saw was permanently damaged in some way, even if it didn't show at the time of case management.  Veggies grown in another family's lead-contaminated soil garden all had various levels of lead as tested in the public health lab.

So, back to neem oil, a natural pesticide.  Both pyrethrin and neem are "natural pesticides."  In fact, every plant has "natural pesticides" that our livers have to detoxify for us.  Just a natural process of man eating plants for yeah many decades.  If plants didn't have natural pesticides, the insect world would decimate the plant world.  My concern is how much ADDITIONAL pesticide should our livers detox?  How many chickens with growth hormones should we eat?  Do you get my thought?

I use neem oil on my ornamental roses and gardenias for mildew/mold.  However, I use dish soap, cooking oil and baking soda on my orange tree.  I personally would not use neem on veggies except for spot treatment, occasionally.  In fact, if I used a pesticide I would probably use Sevin.

I don't think there is any great harm from eating the vegetables that have been sprayed with neem oil.  Especially those that are fruiting plants.  The neem would be very diluted, say, in the squash or bean.  I don't know about the leafy veggies like collard or bok choy.  At least it has "Caution" on it and not "Danger" or "Warning."  My recommendation, and I am not an expert by any means, is to pass on eating the leaves that were actually sprayed and wait until new leaves appear and eat those.  I'm meaning the leafy greens, not the fruiting ones.  The fruiting bodies (tomatoes, squash, beans, etc.) would have a dilution factor in their favor.  There is a saying that "dilution is the solution to pollution."

I'm not against pesticides.  I pour termaticide around the very foundation of the house, but I don't plant veggies there.  And I am careful that it goes into a small trough against the foundation.  The trough is carefully deep watered to get it down into the soil.  I can cover a spill with dirt or bark so my cat doesn't contact it.  I use pesticides against the aggressive wasps, or are they yellow jackets?  I use a rigid fly swatter against black widow spiders because almost nothing else will kill them!!  I would use DEET if I had to be around mosquitoes or ticks.

I had breast cancer, so I double-consider a lot of things now.  The risk of plasticizers in plastic, is something made in China or India where they don't have the same regulations?  Unregulated water wells.  I control what I CAN control in my environment.  Neem oil is only one thing in our environment, and it's not even in the upper 100 of bad things.  Everything in moderation, and when appropriate, if it has to be used.

Man, I need a nap! I'm exhausted!

sanderson

Forum Administrator

Female Posts : 12231
Join date : 2013-04-21
Age : 68
Location : Fresno CA Zone 8-9

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Oh dear...

Post  Windmere on 6/22/2013, 11:13 pm

I fear I have opened a can of worms... pardon the pun (big groan).

Jazzycat, my reference to "what's done is done" really refers to some of the concerns voiced by sanderson. 

Sanderson, I would have been exhausted as well after writing so much on this subject.  Thank you for such careful consideration and thoughtful comments. 

I guess my main question is:  Can neem oil actually permeate our plants to the point of becoming virtually a part of them (from the inside out).  I'm understanding that it can.  I guess this next leads to... Can this hurt us?  In my case, my affected plants were all fruit bearing.  Sanderson, your thoughts about leafy greens vs. fruit bearing plants make sense and allayed some of my concerns.

Windmere

Male Posts : 1425
Join date : 2013-02-26
Age : 47
Location : Fayetteville, GA - Zone 7B - 8A

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  jazzycat on 6/22/2013, 11:36 pm

Rooster, I've heard firsthand from someone who swears by it and knows all about the importance of soil and soil microbes (it's his business).  I started looking into it after speaking with him.  

In India, they use neem trees/products from trees to rebuild soil that's been depleted.  

Following are a few links about neem.

http://www.agrogreencanada.com/whyus/fof_a_neem.php  (be sure to watch the video)

Here is a study on neem and soil.  Not only does it kill bad bacetria, etc, it benefits the good ones.  Soil fertility also went up.

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/medwelljournals/rjagr/2008/12-17.pdf

And here are a couple of articles.

http://www.purezing.com/living/gen_articles/living_articles_organicgarden_neem.html

http://yourorganicgardeningblog.com/neem-oil-for-the-garden-ahead/

Here is information from the Neem Foundation.

http://www.neemfoundation.org/neem-articles/neem-in-organic-farming/pest-management.html


I know a lot of people are resistant to it because it IS a pesticide.  However, it's not a pesticide in the traditional sense.  Neem is a special case, because it IS beneficial in so many ways.

jazzycat

Posts : 596
Join date : 2013-03-12
Location : Savannah, GA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  RoOsTeR on 6/23/2013, 12:01 am

@jazzycat wrote:Rooster, I've heard firsthand from someone who swears by it and knows all about the importance of soil and soil microbes (it's his business).  I started looking into it after speaking with him.  

In India, they use neem trees/products from trees to rebuild soil that's been depleted.  

Following are a few links about neem.

http://www.agrogreencanada.com/whyus/fof_a_neem.php  (be sure to watch the video)

Here is a study on neem and soil.  Not only does it kill bad bacetria, etc, it benefits the good ones.  Soil fertility also went up.

http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/medwelljournals/rjagr/2008/12-17.pdf

And here are a couple of articles.

http://www.purezing.com/living/gen_articles/living_articles_organicgarden_neem.html

http://yourorganicgardeningblog.com/neem-oil-for-the-garden-ahead/

Here is information from the Neem Foundation.

http://www.neemfoundation.org/neem-articles/neem-in-organic-farming/pest-management.html


I know a lot of people are resistant to it because it IS a pesticide.  However, it's not a pesticide in the traditional sense.  Neem is a special case, because it IS beneficial in so many ways.
From what I gather, and I could be reading it wrong, but most of the "benefits" come from using the actual leaves or broken down Neem trees. Neem cakes. The Neem oil is a concentrated by-product we use as a pesticide. I may be missing it, but I'm not seeing the same benefits stated for the Neem oil.

____________________________


I am my gardens worst enemy.

RoOsTeR

Forum Administrator

Male Posts : 3879
Join date : 2011-10-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  sanderson on 6/23/2013, 12:21 am

Jazzy, the Neem Foundation article was interesting.

sanderson

Forum Administrator

Female Posts : 12231
Join date : 2013-04-21
Age : 68
Location : Fresno CA Zone 8-9

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  jazzycat on 6/23/2013, 1:04 am

Rooster, I agree using the cakes is probably more beneficial.  The person who started me on this journey, however, uses the oil, mixed with Dr. Bronner's Soap, every two weeks or so.  And going by what he said, his plants love it, and it boosts his soil fertility/microbial activity and he never has pest problems.  I can only tell you what I know, what I've been told by someone I trust, and share the knowledge I've found through researching the subject.  I'm not saying I'm right, or this is right.  I'm just saying, this is what I've learned.  Smile

One last thing.  If you watched the video from the agro-green-canada site, Vandana Shiva talks about neem.  She is a scientist and an activist for farmers in India.  Big corporations always try to patent certain active ingredients in plants so they can make money.  I think this is where we get into trouble.  When you take one or two ingredients from a plant and then condense it down to make it stronger and stronger so you can make more profit, then yes, it's going to cause problems.  I don't think using the natural oil in a diluted form would be that damaging.  But I would be careful what brand I buy (make sure it's a complete oil in it's natural state, with no additives) and be sure to follow the instructions.

I'm seriously going to research if this tree will grow where I live, and if it will, planting one.

jazzycat

Posts : 596
Join date : 2013-03-12
Location : Savannah, GA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  RoOsTeR on 6/23/2013, 1:26 am

I think the OP was about the use of neem oil specifically.
 Windmere, I don't really know the answer to that. To keep things on the simple side, like  Mel intended for the method, I personally will continue to consider Neem oil as a pesticide, with an intended specific purpose and treat it as such.

____________________________


I am my gardens worst enemy.

RoOsTeR

Forum Administrator

Male Posts : 3879
Join date : 2011-10-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  walshevak on 6/23/2013, 8:58 am

From a previous post.   Laughing

http://squarefoot.creatingforum.com/t8207-neem-trees


Kay


Their home made brew worked.

____________________________

A WEED IS A FLOWER GROWING IN THE WRONG PLACE
Elizabeth City, NC
Find more about Weather in Elizabeth City, NC
Click for weather forecast

walshevak

Certified SFG Instructor

Female Posts : 4310
Join date : 2010-10-17
Age : 73
Location : wilmington, nc zone 8

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Is neem oil coursing through my veins?

Post  Sponsored content Today at 1:49 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum