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Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

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Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 2:30 pm

I've got compost and vermiculite. I wanted to use coconut coir but my local Home Depot only carries peat moss and I was kind of avoiding having to use it.

Unfortunately nobody around here carries coconut coir and I don't really want to buy it online.

I was wondering if it would be okay to omit the peat and coconut and just go ahead with the compost and vermiculite, I mean vermiculite has water retention anways so I don't see why I would need peat moss or coconut coir anyways. Thanks.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  camprn on 7/18/2013, 2:33 pm

Use the sphagnum peatmoss! It's sustainably harvested in North America. You will have better results, in my opinion. Some folks who have been on this forum that have used coir, have had less than desirable results.

Mel says if you can't get peat, compost is what you want to use. Have you read the all New Square Foot Gardening book?

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 2:38 pm

No I haven't read it before. I'm not sure if garden soil is the same as compost but it's all my local hardware stores carry. And my nursery doesn't even sell compost if you can believe that!

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  point on 7/18/2013, 2:56 pm

Home Depot locally carries mushroom and cow compost suitable for organic gardens, but it has too much woody debris.  A better bet was a feed-and-grain-and-garden center: they had lots of peat moss and lobster compost.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 3:18 pm

I think every Home Depot is different. I didn't see anything like that at mine.

All they have is garden soil, topsoil, potting mix, shade mix, steer and chicken manure. The only compost they had was something called ecoscrapes. I guess it's organic composted fruit and vegetables, the only problem is that bag said it had metals in it. And it wasn't omri listed so I opted out.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  camprn on 7/18/2013, 3:27 pm

@nick2788 wrote:No I haven't read it before. I'm not sure if garden soil is the same as compost but it's all my local hardware stores carry. And my nursery doesn't even sell compost if you can believe that!
Sorry to break it to you but garden soil is absolutely NOT compost. Before you go dropping good coin, grab a copy of the book and / or go to the front page of the Forum and click on the hover tab on the left. Doing a bit of research and getting things correct in the first place will save you a lot of heartache AND will give you good results in the garden. That is my advice. Good luck.

Check local farms and craigslist in the farm and garden section for compost.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  donnainzone5 on 7/18/2013, 3:32 pm

Nick,

I'm afraid that garden soil is not the same thing as compost!  Please don't use it.

Your first step should be to read the Second Edition of All New Square Foot Gardening.

As for the peat moss vs. coir issue, studies have shown that peat moss consistently outperforms coir.  As Camprn mentioned, peat moss is sustainably harvested in North America.  

Is there an Armstrong Garden Center near you?  There are some organic blended composts/planting mixes there that you may wish to use.  Even a rose planting compost might count as one of the five.  But please read the labels; if a bag already contains peat moss, either reduce the amount of that ingredient in your mix, or look for a different compost.  

You might also check out some of the Japanese garden centers.  At least one of them, on Sawtelle Blvd. in West Los Angeles, carries oak leaf mold, which admittedly is pricey.

You should have no trouble finding chicken compost.  And you may also find Gardner & Bloom's Harvest Supreme at some independent nurseries.  It's one of my favorites.  Try to avoid any of the Kellogg brand of composts and amendments, they're typically full of uncomposted wood.  

Last but not least, you can look on Craig's List for free or low-cost compost.  Make sure, if you can, that it's fully composted, or you may encounter weed seeds.  

As others have said, as soon as you are able, start your own compost pile or tumbler.

Best of luck, and welcome to the forum!

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  sanderson on 7/18/2013, 3:37 pm

Nick said "No I haven't read it [the ANSFG] before."

Camprn replied: "Before you go dropping good coin, grab a copy of the book and / or go to the front page of the Forum and click on the hover tab on the left. Doing a bit of research and getting things correct in the first place will save you a lot of heartache AND will give you good results in the garden. That is my advice. Good luck."

I Ditto what Camp replied. Follow the ANSFG Book to the letter and you will have success. Cut corners, and you may be playing catch-up.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 3:53 pm

I guess I'm out of luck then, I live in a fairly small town with a few hardware stores and one nursery.

The only thing the hardware stores sell is garden soil with the exception of EcoScraps compost which I've heard mixed reviews on.

One of my local supermarkets sell organic composted fruit and vegetables that they normally throw away. But that's only one source.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  camprn on 7/18/2013, 3:55 pm

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/search/gra?query=compost&zoomToPosting=&srchType=A&minAsk=&maxAsk=

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 4:49 pm

Soil building compost, is that any different?

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  southern gardener on 7/18/2013, 4:57 pm

Don't know how far in So. Calif you are, but there's Agromin here locally. They sell a good mix. That mix that CAMPRN has on craigslist shows an awesome soil mix! It's way north of us tho...so not feasible. I'd get some of that if I were closer! Sounds amazing. There's also Peach Hill Soils in Moorpark, they have a good mix too. You can PM me if you want about some info...maybe I can help?? good luck!!

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 5:12 pm

Thanks everyone. I live in the mountains above Lancaster. The thing is, I don't really need that much compost. I only have one 4 feet long by two feet wide by 8 inch deep bed.

Getting multiple bags of compost of different varieties seems counter productive when I have such a small bed to fill. The only type of compost I can find at my nursery is soil building compost. It has bat guano, kelp meal, chicken manure, and a few other things. Would that kind of compost work?

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  NHGardener on 7/18/2013, 5:19 pm

Hmm. Then why does it say this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat_moss

"Large-scale peat harvesting is not sustainable, as it takes thousands of years to form the peat that can be harvested in just a week. Coir has been touted as a sustainable alternative to peat moss in growing media.[27] Another peat moss alternative is manufactured in California from sustainably harvested redwood fiber."

I always feel guilty buying peat moss.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  camprn on 7/18/2013, 5:24 pm

@NHGardener wrote:Hmm. Then why does it say this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat_moss

"Large-scale peat harvesting is not sustainable, as it takes thousands of years to form the peat that can be harvested in just a week. Coir has been touted as a sustainable alternative to peat moss in growing media.[27] Another peat moss alternative is manufactured in California from sustainably harvested redwood fiber."


I always feel guilty buying peat moss.
Probably because it is wikipedia and it is user edited, that passage could also be directly related to European bogs of ancient peat, not the North American bogs. http://www.peatmoss.com/blog/environment

To harvest coir and get it to North america uses incredible amounts of fresh water, where water is often hard to come by, and a lot of oil to ship it all here.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  donnainzone5 on 7/18/2013, 5:39 pm

Gardner & Bloome makes a Soil Building Compost, but it also has quite a lot of wood slivers in it. If you sifted it, though, it might be worthwhile. At least one forum member has used it, as I recall.

Do you know anyone who travels from your area to the Los Angeles area? If so, you might be able to bribe them to pick up some composts for you.

How close are you to Bakersfield? Are you on or near the 58? Possibly there are some compost resources there.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  mollyhespra on 7/18/2013, 6:11 pm

I, personally, opted not to use peat or coir in my SFG.  I went with 2/3 compost to 1/3 vermiculite plus a little greensand to keep it all together.  The only problems that I could attribute to the lack of peat was that my pH was high and had to be brought down with some sulfur, and that my mix drains so well that it similarly dries out too fast.  I've just gone & bought some strawbales to use as mulch, which should help to hold the moisture in.  Otherwise, I'm a happy SFG-er.

Being as your SFG is on the small scale, I'd suggest doing the best you can with what you can get available & starting your own compost pile. As you can find or afford more composts, snag them & keep them under a tarp to add to your MM as you harvest.

But as to the environmental issues: the link you posted, Camp, with all due respect, is hardly from a neutral source, being from a website operated by the the Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss Association (CSPMA), who naturally want to feature themselves in the most favorable light possible.  

So, in the spirit of equal news time, here's a different angle on the issue: http://www.naturallifemagazine.com/0712/asknlpeat.html


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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  camprn on 7/18/2013, 6:36 pm

@mollyhespra wrote:I, personally, opted not to use peat or coir in my SFG.  I went with 2/3 compost to 1/3 vermiculite plus a little greensand to keep it all together.  The only problems that I could attribute to the lack of peat was that my pH was high and had to be brought down with some sulfur, and that my mix drains so well that it similarly dries out too fast.  I've just gone & bought some strawbales to use as mulch, which should help to hold the moisture in.  Otherwise, I'm a happy SFG-er.

Being as your SFG is on the small scale, I'd suggest doing the best you can with what you can get available & starting your own compost pile.  As you can find or afford more composts, snag them & keep them under a tarp to add to your MM as you harvest.

But as to the environmental issues: the link you posted, Camp, with all due respect, is hardly from a neutral source, being from a website operated by the the Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss Association (CSPMA), who naturally want to feature themselves in the most favorable light possible.  

So, in the spirit of equal news time, here's a different angle on the issue: http://www.naturallifemagazine.com/0712/asknlpeat.html

There have been multiple debates regarding the the use sphagnum or coir on this forum, and this thread was about using coir or nothing regarding the OP question. The link I posted has factual information with position papers and plans submitted by the Sphagnum peat industry. I had no idea I needed to post a 'neutral source' to provide information. Thank you for posting an alternative source of information and opinion.

An ongoing debate about sphagnum peat vs. coir is inappropriate for this thread. If posters would like to resurrect the debate, please bring forth the old threads or start another one.
According to Mel, Mel's mix consists only of 1/3 sphagnum peat (coconut coir being an acceptable alternative), 1/3 5 way mixed compost and 1/3 vermiculite. Mel's mix is the standard for the Square Foot Garden system. If the gardener has no access to peat or coir and vermiculite, straight compost is an acceptable alternative for growing a SFG.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  RoOsTeR on 7/18/2013, 7:12 pm

@camprn wrote:
@mollyhespra wrote:I, personally, opted not to use peat or coir in my SFG.  I went with 2/3 compost to 1/3 vermiculite plus a little greensand to keep it all together.  The only problems that I could attribute to the lack of peat was that my pH was high and had to be brought down with some sulfur, and that my mix drains so well that it similarly dries out too fast.  I've just gone & bought some strawbales to use as mulch, which should help to hold the moisture in.  Otherwise, I'm a happy SFG-er.

Being as your SFG is on the small scale, I'd suggest doing the best you can with what you can get available & starting your own compost pile.  As you can find or afford more composts, snag them & keep them under a tarp to add to your MM as you harvest.

But as to the environmental issues: the link you posted, Camp, with all due respect, is hardly from a neutral source, being from a website operated by the the Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss Association (CSPMA), who naturally want to feature themselves in the most favorable light possible.  

So, in the spirit of equal news time, here's a different angle on the issue: http://www.naturallifemagazine.com/0712/asknlpeat.html

There have been multiple debates regarding the the use sphagnum or coir on this forum, and this thread was about using coir or nothing regarding the OP question. The link I posted has factual information with position papers and plans submitted by the Sphagnum peat industry. I had no idea I needed to post a 'neutral source' to provide information. Thank you for posting an alternative source of information and opinion.

An ongoing debate about sphagnum peat vs. coir is inappropriate for this thread. If posters would like to resurrect the debate, please bring forth the old threads or start another one.
According to Mel, Mel's mix consists only of 1/3 sphagnum peat (coconut coir being an acceptable alternative), 1/3 5 way mixed compost and 1/3 vermiculite. Mel's mix is the standard for the Square Foot Garden system. If the gardener has no access to peat or coir and vermiculite, straight compost is an acceptable alternative for growing a SFG.

Well said camp. Also, if memory serves correctly, the foundation recommends only a portion of the peat be replaced by coir. Not all! I think it was perhaps a 1/3 of the peat could be substituted with coir. But, like camp stated, this debate has gone on and on a number of times previously, and will NOT continue in this thread.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/18/2013, 7:36 pm

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to get into a debate. I just wanted to know if I absolutely needed either peat or coir. I went ahead and bought a 3 cubic foot bale of lakeland Canadian sphagnum peat moss from HD for $12.97 it's the only peat moss they carry.

I returned the two bags of garden soil that I bought from HD while I was there. Thanks for heads up on clarifying the difference between garden soil and compost! I think I'll just end up buying the local compost that's available to me. I might not be able to get 5 sources though. One bag has 3 in it.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  RoOsTeR on 7/18/2013, 7:44 pm

It's not your fault Nick. Some of us just want to make sure you are on the right track. You did good getting the peat. I would highly recommend reading the book so you have a better understanding of the method used and supported here on the forum.
And welcome! Very Happy 

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  sanderson on 7/18/2013, 11:42 pm

Nick, As a first timer, just do the best you can. I was so excited hyper  to start SFG this spring that I ended up using mainly Kellogg as my "1/3 compost." Embarassed I had to use a mix of 2/3 perlite and 1/3 vermiculite for the vermiculite part. The peat moss was easy to find. I'm glad you decided to get it. Just make sure you fluff it first if it is in a compact bail. It doubles in size!!

Just do your best as you start. Your three-source compost is bound to be better than Kelloggs! I am 110% sold on SFG as promoted in the ANSFG book.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/19/2013, 2:16 am

Thanks, I guess I should probably buy the book!

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  donnainzone5 on 7/19/2013, 11:19 am

Nick,

If your blended compost contains three ingredients, why not purchase a bag of the supermarket stuff and one bag of chicken or mushroom compost? That should work, and there won't be much left over. Any remainder can always be used to level the beds, fill a hanging basket, etc.

I'm eagerly looking forward to your progress reports, and, of course, pictures!

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

Post  nick2788 on 7/19/2013, 11:33 am

Thanks! Nobody around me sells chicken or mushroom compost unfortunately.

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Re: Do I need peat moss or coconut coir?

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