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Pesticide use?

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Pesticide use?

Post  CapeCoddess on 12/21/2013, 10:43 am

@sanderson wrote:for all of you in the path of the freezing rain (TX to NE), drive carefully and stay safe, warm and dry. 

That's not me, thank goodness.   I wouldn't know what to do or how to behave.  Like you, T-shirts and gardening jeans for me until Tuesday.  Well, maybe with a work shirt over the top. Very Happy

Bay window tour, all are in MM -
I'm wondering if I'm the only person in New England right now with vine ripening tomatoes growing in their window: 

The basil is still growing but since I don't use it much it's also getting a bit limp from lack of watering:

The parsley is doing well & I love it in my smoothies:
The stevia next to it is actually 5 feet tall with seeds right now and will be cut down soon and hung on the back of a door to dry.

Romaine lettuce and Tuscan kale:
These are the buggy ones.  I sprayed with pyrethrin and it seems to have helped but I'm sure they'll be back.  I'll harvest them by end of January if not sooner.

OK, heading out to prune the spireas and burning bushes, spread some more wood chips, and maybe water the greens in the SFG with some nitrogen.  I'm hoping to get a huge growth spurt over the next few days for Mondays greens harvest.
  

Stay safe and warm, fellow New Englanders.

CC


Last edited by camprn on 12/22/2013, 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : corrected title)

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  mollyhespra on 12/21/2013, 1:50 pm

ACK!!  

CC, be very careful about letting your cat near the plants you've sprayed with the pyrethrin.  Cats are especially sensitive to that family of chemicals & your pretty little kitty could get sick.

Here's an article: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3892/

but do some research of your own.  I, personally don't let it in the house after a friend lost 2 of her cats to pyrethrin toxicity because she used it to treat ticks in her yard & didn't know it could kill the cats.

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  camprn on 12/21/2013, 2:17 pm

@mollyhespra wrote:ACK!!  

CC, be very careful about letting your cat near the plants you've sprayed with the pyrethrin.  Cats are especially sensitive to that family of chemicals & your pretty little kitty could get sick.

Here's an article: http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3892/

but do some research of your own.  I, personally don't let it in the house after a friend lost 2 of her cats to pyrethrin toxicity because she used it to treat ticks in her yard & didn't know it could kill the cats.
+1 natural or organic does not equal safe.

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  CapeCoddess on 12/21/2013, 2:34 pm

OH. MY. GOSH!   Sad 

I had no idea about pyrethins and cats.  darn!  I wonder how long it takes for any symptoms to show up.  I used it about 3 days ago thru the whole window, but haven't seen any unusual behavior in Lilly.  Fortunately there's not a lot of room in there for her so she hasn't been hanging out there.

Thanks, folks, for the heads up and the lesson.  The stuff is heading for the trash now.  Jiminy crickets...

CC

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  camprn on 12/21/2013, 3:27 pm

It doesn't need to go in the trash as it is a good pesticide, but it is always wise to read and follow label directions and know what it is you are using it for. Don't beat yourself up. It is handy stuff. Really good on those wicked red asiatic lily beetles.
http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/pesticides/infosheets/pyrethrin.pdf

http://www.southernag.com/docs/labels_msds/Neem-pt.pdf


Last edited by camprn on 12/21/2013, 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added link)

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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  CapeCoddess on 12/21/2013, 3:55 pm

Well done, Camp.  I'm sure your bees appreciated the visit and care.

Btw, there's not a thing on that pyrethrin spary label about cats in the warning, which was UNDER a peel off sticker that removes the instructions completely: 


Front:

 Evil or Very Mad It ticks me off!  They'll be receiving a sternly worded note from me fersure.

CC

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Indoor insecticide use?

Post  sanderson on 12/21/2013, 4:54 pm

CC,  I've learned about cats and their super sensitivity the hard way.  I've had 1-2-3 cats all of my life.  At this age I only have Sweetie.  I'm doing everything right by her after a lifetime of painful learning.  And remember, I was a health inspector with lots of biology and chemical education.

The chemicals my cats were exposed to over the years would be considered animal cruelty except no one thought twice about the chemicals and cats.  Cat flea dips!  Spray finishes from my husband's wood shop section of the 3-car garage.  The fumes easily seeped under the door into the area when the cats slept at night.  Motor oils and fluids in the garage. Yard treatments for ants and fleas, weeds and pre-emergents.  Kidney shutdown and skin cancers were the most common causes of death.

I wouldn't stress too much about one light treatment indoors.  Personally, I would move the plants outside in the sun to break down the pyrethrin.  Use warm water and soap to clean the surfaces in that area.  Clean rinse and towel dry.  Let the sunlight shine on the area to break down any pyrethrin residues.  Then replace plants.

Here are two links:  There are others but the first should be credible.

www.napcc.aspca.org    Listed in the vetinfo.com topic
www.vetinfo.com  I read this one

PS This is way off topic and probably should have it's own topic.


Last edited by sanderson on 12/21/2013, 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add PS)

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Cats (Pets) and Pyrethrin

Post  mollyhespra on 12/22/2013, 9:45 am

Thanks for moving the topic, Camp. It will hopefully get to more people than hidden in our little NE sub-forum.

As Sanderson already wrote, it's amazing how many toxins we inadvertently expose our pets to. Just because it's "safe" for humans it's not necessary "safe" for our dogs, cats, other wildlife, etc.

Which reminds me to ask you, Camp: do you use it in your garden? I thought it was toxic to bees too. Or is that Permethrin? I can never keep the two separate in my head.

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  camprn on 12/22/2013, 10:16 am

I have not ever used pyrethrin in my garden, but I hear it is very effective for the dreaded asian lily beetle.

I have learned to live with certain pests and promote a healthy balanced environment where the predator species will thrive to keep the pest species in balance. When I do intervene I may use insecticidal soap (aphids) or hand pick (cabbage worm/ horn worm) or use barriers like tulle to keep the cabbage moths at bay. I also have used the baking soda and copper sprays for foliar disease prevention or treatment. When I do use a product in the garden I find myself repeatedly reading the label and watching the activity of life in the garden for clues of proper timing in use or effectiveness of use. In my world oftentimes a little goes a long way. I have ramped up the pesticide treatment of my bee colonies when there is an increase in mite numbers. BUT I watch for the signs that there is a problem developing, whether in the garden or the hives, and treat accordingly and incrementally.

Oh, and I have used a glyphosate on poisonivy.

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  CapeCoddess on 12/22/2013, 12:15 pm

This is a very important topic, IMO.

Does anyone know of any other harmful 'natural' and/or 'organic' pesticides out there that we should be aware of?

CC

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  camprn on 12/22/2013, 12:50 pm

@CapeCoddess wrote:This is a very important topic, IMO.  

Does anyone know of any other harmful 'natural' and/or 'organic' pesticides out there that we should be aware of?

CC

They should all be suspect. By their very nature, whether they are organic or artificially manufactured, all pesticides are meant to kill or deter pests be they insects, fungus, disease, birds or animals.
There is a great sticky in the Pests forum that has a link to pesticide database with very good detailed information.
http://squarefoot.creatingforum.com/t6026-pesticide-database

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There are certain pursuits which, if not wholly poetic and true, do at least suggest a nobler and finer relation to nature than we know. The keeping of bees, for instance. ~ Henry David Thoreau

http://squarefoot.creatingforum.com/t1306-other-gardening-books

Outlander is outstanding!


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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  mollyhespra on 3/3/2015, 9:28 pm

BUMP!  

This issue came up again and for the sake of organization, I'm going to cut & paste the relevant posts into this response (thanks for the hint, Sanderson).  

WARNING: LONG.

@CapeCoddess wrote:
(snip)
Do you know at what temp aphids will die?  Oh, I just looked it up and it's less than 14 degrees.  That room never gets that cold and besides, it would kill the stumplings first.
I still have that pyrethrum spray.  I could use it in the bedroom as Lilly can't get in there.

@mollyhespra wrote:CC are the aphids showing up only on the turnips?  Why not try some DE on the aphids first before bringing out the pyrethrum?  I've got no-cat zones in my house too but you know how they are; if they *know* they're not allowed in a particular area it becomes all the more tempting.  The DE shouldn't hurt Miss Lilly, while the pyrethrum could...

@sanderson wrote:Or spray the pyrethrum outdoor and let everything completely dry before bringing them back under the lights?  They could spend a day or two in the closed bedroom?

@CapeCoddess wrote:
(snip)
OH, and I did use DE on the turnip stumplings a couple times but the aphids come back, just not in the original numbers.  That helped make them manageable enough to squish now.   I'll banish the plants to the bedroom and spray with the pyrithrum. Spraying them outside in this cold might kill them.

CC

@mollyhespra wrote:Just remember, CC, that the pyrethrum "sticks" to textiles and will hang around for quite a few washings. as such, mind the overspray getting on your clothes or skin (Miss Lilly may not get in that bedroom, but she'll likely get on you) or any other textiles in there.  Also be careful about not inhaling it.

Actually, if the DE helped to get the aphids' numbers down, why not just wait until it's "warmer" (above freezing) and do the P. spray outside?   Honestly, I wouldn't risk having it in the house at all, it's so toxic to cats.  DH has his Permethrin-soaked hiking stuff in the garage and he changes in and out of them in there so as not not risk it coming into contact with the furballs.

@CapeCoddess wrote:"pyrethrum 'sticks' to textiles"

I did not know this.  Mad   I'll do it outside.  Wed is supposed to be a bit warmer.

CC

@littlesapphire wrote:(snip)
I've never used pyrethrum, but I have used Permathrin on some hiking clothes so I wouldn't have to spray my body with deet (yuck).  I remember reading that permathrin is highly toxic to cats when it's wet, but once it's dry, it's perfectly safe.  
(snip)

@mollyhespra wrote:Can you post where you read that permethrin is safe to cats when dry?  

All the reading/research I've ever done (I have cats and DH uses permethrin to treat his hiking clothes) state that it's toxic/potentially lethal to cats, period.  I'm at work right now, but I can dig up the articles for you when I get home this evening.  If you use the stuff and have cats it's important to be fully informed.

You may be thinking about contact with dog or human skin, where it's allegedly perfectly safe.

@littlesapphire wrote:Molly, I got my info from the back of the permathrin bottle.  I did a quick search on google and came up with many sites that say it's safe once dry.  Here's one that seems pretty legit.  I care deeply about my cats though, so I make double sure to never have the liquid permathrin in the house, and I keep the sprayed clothing in a bag away from the cats.


Last edited by mollyhespra on 3/3/2015, 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  mollyhespra on 3/3/2015, 9:47 pm

OK, so here's what I don't understand: I read the article you cited, Julie, and I was good all the way down to the last line, reading all the warnings, etc. when it just ends with the statement, "...Once the product has dried it is no longer a danger to cats or children." without any citation to any research to support the veracity of that statement.

I think we all agree that it's toxic and potentially lethal to cats, right?  The issue under debate is whether it is at any point rendered safe by being dry.

I don't understand what difference can it possibly make if the permethrin is in dry form or suspended in a liquid medium, which will simply evaporate leaving behind...dry permethrin...which is toxic to cats.

Sanderson, you've got much more experience with chemicals than I do.  Can you weigh in on this issue?

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Re: Pesticide use?

Post  sanderson on 3/4/2015, 2:23 am

Poor cats just can't handle it like dogs and humans.   Sad  I am not an expert in pesticides.  My experience / training has been in the application of pesticides against pest or harmful insects.  The "relative" safety of different products was only a side note or downplayed.  Here is a comparison of 3 commonly used pesticides.  So far, I have only used Neem.  I would probably choose Sevin (carbaryl) over permethrin.  My cat eats bean, borage and zinnia leaves, so I have to be very careful even with the neem, i.e. night or predawn spraying, thorough drying.
---
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/PermGen.html

"What happens to permethrin in the environment?

If permethrin gets into the soil, it is broken down by microorganisms. Sunlight may also break down permethrin on the soil surface and on the surface of water. Permethrin does not mix well with water. When permethrin gets into surface water like lakes or streams, it sticks very strongly to sediment and can stay there for more than a year. Since permethrin sticks to sediment and does not mix well with water, it won't usually contaminate groundwater. Permethrin does not evaporate very easily when it is applied to surfaces. Permethrin was applied indoors near a window in an experiment where it was exposed to daylight. After 20 days, 60% of the permethrin that was applied was still on the surface.

If permethrin is applied to plants, it may stay on the leaves for between 1 and 3 weeks. Scientists applied permethrin to soil and then planted sugar beets, wheat, lettuce and cotton in the soil. Scientists found trace amounts of the permethrin residue in the edible parts of the plants at 30 and 120 days after planting. Trace amounts of permethrin have been found in foods including bananas, collard greens, squash and watermelon. However, less than 1% of the more than 1700 food samples tested had detectable levels of permethrin."
"Cats are more sensitive to permethrin than dogs or people because it takes their bodies a long time to break it down."
"Permethrin is highly toxic to bees and other beneficial insects."
---
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/neemgen.html

"What happens to neem oil in the environment?

Azadirachtin, a major component of neem oil, is rapidly broken down. Microbes and light break down the pesticide in soil, water and on plants. The half-life of azadirachtin in soil ranges from 3 - 44 days. In water, the half-life ranges from 48 minutes to 4 days. It also rapidly breaks down on plant leaves; the half-life if 1 - 2.5 days. The remaining components of neem oil are broken down by microbes in most soil and water environments."

"It is important to remember that insects must eat the treated plant to be killed. Therefore, bees and other pollinators are not likely to be harmed."
---
http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/carbgen.pdf

"What happens to carbaryl (Sevin) outdoors?
Soil:  Depending upon conditions, carbaryl has a half life ranging from 4 to 72 days in soil. Carbaryl breaks down faster in sandy, flooded, or well aerated soils.
Plants: Carbaryl has an average half -life of 3.2 days on plant leaves.
Water: Carbaryl does not dissolve well in water and sticks to soil. However, carbaryl is widely used and can last a long time under the right conditions
Cats are typically more sensitive to the effects of carbaryl than dogs
Carbaryl is very high in toxicity to honey bees and can harm beneficial insects."

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