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SFG in a mediterranean climate

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SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 3:40 pm

Hi all!  I apologize if anyone sees this posted elsewhere on another place as I didn't realize this place existed and now that I do, I am posting my questions here! 

I may be moving to a mediterranean climate (about 55 miles from the Mediterranean itself) in a few months.  My husband and I want to grow all of our own food (and include some other family members of his, so it would be quite the operation).  I've been considering the SFG method for this.  I've had gardens before and never was any good at rows-- I always was closer to the French Intensive Method.  He's also grown extensively in the past, but he has always used traditional methods for their area-- either rows or scattering seed depending on the space allowed. 

There is rain that falls November through February, with scattered showers coming September-October and then again March through May (like once a week it rains or sometimes once every other week).  Then sometime in May it stops raining until those first showers in September. 

They do not and cannot afford to irrigate-- no water.  Yet, despite this, they grow tomatoes, eggplant, cucumbers, melons, sunflowers, etc all during the summer with no watering.  Not even a little bit.  They also grow citrus, figs, pomegranates, olives, and other trees without irrigation-- many are natives to the area. 

My like about the SFG is that it is productive for the space.  My concern was without the ability to water, would the close spacing of the plants make too much water competition?  They don't have peat, wood is ridiculously priced, no vermiculite... so it would be a compost-only method.  I know that would create a heavier soil, but I was thinking that could be advantageous?  Their natural soil is a clay base, and obviously the clay really helps with water retention over the dry summer. 

Winter doesn't concern me as it rains and they just grow cool weather crops.  They get about 16-18" of water annually, so it's better than a lot of our western/southwestern rainfalls (I'm from NV/CA and remember 4" of rain quite well lol).

We'll try to work out a grey water system, but I don't want to include that in the equation.  You get water once a week for a couple of hours and that is pumped into your tanks for your bathrooms and kitchen-- so you don't want to depend on that water either.  Sometimes, for some reason, they don't turn it on in a week.  So you learn to depend more on your cistern-- but as you can see, it's not like here where we just have pretty easy access to water. 

Anyway, thanks for reading this far and thanks for any answers!

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mediterranian

Post  kauairosina on 2/27/2014, 4:05 pm

Have you checked into the Europe designation on this site?  I imagine you will get lots of good advice.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 4:07 pm

I haven't-- thanks for the advice!

I just checked and see there is a lot more activity in Europe than in Asia (the Middle East is where I would be).  Not sure, then, if it's better to go with Europe over Asia?

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How about both?

Post  kauairosina on 2/27/2014, 4:23 pm

I would post in both Asia and Europe and see if anyone responds.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 4:25 pm

Thanks for all your help!  Maybe I should just link to this one and see if I get any responses?  I don't want to mass-post the same thing just over and over.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  sanderson on 2/27/2014, 5:39 pm

chloeasha,  Welcome to the Forum!   glad you\'re here   This may be the most important gardening Forum for you to join.  Don't worry about what Region you live in, you are welcome to reply to any subject / topic.  The Regions are neat because they are like mini-support and subject groups.  But we all chat across the Forum.

One doesn't have to live near the Mediterranean Sea to be in a "Mediterranean Region."  I'm in Fresno, CA, where it is considered Med.  There are a few of us on the Forum.  SFG is the only way to garden in dry areas.  Please check out page 15 of the Topic "Modesto, Central Valley, CA."  They just built a rain water collection system and are excited about the rain they collected with just yesterday's rain. There's also a link in the thread for more photos and details

Raised 6" beds (actually 7" because you will need a little mulch on top of your Mel's Mix) set on any type of soil will work.  Trust me.  Quality Compost is the most important part of the Mel's Mix, so even if you don't have vermiculite / perlite and peat moss, you can still garden with success.  One of our members over-wintered in the Philippines and she was very clever!  She used coarse vermiculite as packing material!! I imagine that you will use concrete blocks for your beds.

My recommendation is to buy a copy of "All New Square Foot Gardening, 2nd Ed." by Mel Bartholomew.  I just got a new one on eBay.  Maybe buy the seeds you want to grow, now.  My favorite is Baker Seeds but there are other favorites.  You will be able to find local potted plants if you move.  Stay linked to this Forum.  We are here to help any one, any where!

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 5:57 pm

Hi Sanderson!  Yep!  That's why I did the small m mediterranean as I figured people from the climate type all around the world could respond Smile  The NW corner of Jordan is sort of like Riverside County, although it only freezes like once every 10-20 years and only for a few hours... but stays cooler and more like N. Cal in the winter-- highs in the 50s and 60s with lows in the upper 30s and low 40s.  So there isn't an exact correlation, but that's OK!

I wish I had the luxury of extra space to bring things, but unfortunately, we need to put our whole lives in a few suitcases.  I will be bringing my seed collection (Love Baker's!), but no way could I bring vermiculite.  That was a good idea though!  I'll check out the Modesto thread.  I have checked out the SFG book from my library as I can't really afford to get more books now (books=weight and space!).  They don't really sell any potted vegetables there, but there are a handful of seed guys at the market.  Down south there are some roadside vendors of plants, but not sure if I would get there.  It's not really the same as gardening in the US or Europe at all.   Smile

Oh!  Re: bed edging-- I don't think we'll have any as husband is adamantly against it.  Sad

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  sanderson on 2/27/2014, 6:09 pm

Okay, one bed for you and the rest are his???

I really encourage you to take the book with you and have it shipped as soon as you move there. I meant things potted like citrus plants

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 6:26 pm

Oh no way can we afford to ship anything Sad  Sad fact of life.  We're graduate students and having to sell everything we own in order to pay for tickets and such.  And mailing there is kind of crazy.  You have to DHL since no one has an actual address and the PO doesn't deliver (and it has less than a 50-50 chance of someone not taking it anyway).  We sent 2 bottles of vitamins to his sister and it cost us $280.

LOL I wish!  I'll probably do all the gardening, but it remains to be seen what we can put together and afford.  We'll be having to buy the land and build the house and income will be about $1200/month. That's a great salary for over there, but the house and land will probably top $100k, not including anything you want inside your house (like furniture). 

So bed edging is kind of down the line.  but you're right-- cinder block would be one thing.  I am personally trying to pitch rock.  Lots of rocks in the fields and no one wants them.  Rocks could make rock edging and walls!  This idea has been met with skepticism lol.  Smile

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  walshevak on 2/27/2014, 7:52 pm

If walls can be created with dry laid rocks then so can garden beds and England is full of no mortar walls .  There has to be some instructions on the internet somewhere.  Wish I could remember where I saw it, but I did see something about gardening in Jordan using a swale/trough method. I remember one of the tenents was using olive trees as shade. As you have already pointed out, water will be a big issue.  Do the best you can to get an extra cistern/water barrel set up going for the garden.  And possibly shade cloth during the summer.  At least our small beds make it easy to provide shade without having to cover a whole field.  Listen to the locals, and incorporate what you can into the SFG method.  In particular about manures and compost creation.  My biggest problem in Philippines is compost source and lack of transportation to collect any.  Also this is such a poor country, nothing is available free except grass clippings. Even the rocks on the beach are sold by the beach owner.  We have especially saved any wood used in connection with pouring concrete.  Wood is EXPENSIVE. 

The variety of  veggies, fruits and spices available in Jordan is great.  I spent 2 1/2 months in Amman but without cooking facilities couldn't take advantage.  I did buy a lot of fruit and washed it in my hotel room.

I was able to ship vermiculite as packing to the Philippines because they have a system created for their overseas workers called Balikbayan Boxes.  $85 for a large box no matter what the weight or contents ( with some restrictions), customs and duties included.  Unfortunately, it only works one way - into the Philippines not out and I don't know of any other country that has anything similar.

I have one warning for you not related to gardening but to driving.  During the dry months the exhaust from the vehicles lays an oily layer down on all the roads.  When the first rains come they are light and not cleansing downpours.  This creates a situation where the roads are like driving on ice.  I was warned and the first morning of the fall rain I was driving slowly and cautiously, but I still slid almost through one intersection trying to brake.  And I fishtailed negotiating the exit from a traffic circle that had a slight uphill to it.  Luckily it was about 4am and traffic was very light.  Later in the day it could have been a real issue.

Kay

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  walshevak on 2/27/2014, 8:01 pm

@sanderson wrote:Okay, one bed for you and the rest are his???

I really encourage you to take the book with you and have it shipped as soon as you move there.  I meant things potted like citrus plants

This is the perfect use of the kindle for pc app.  load the book to your pc.  I used amazon for all my reading material while I was in Amman, Jordan.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 8:28 pm

Haha yes, I know about that!  I lived most of my life in Las Vegas.  Same thing-- when rain happens, everything is extremely slippery.  Amman gets not quite but almost half the rain of where we would be going so we wouldn't be as dry.  you're right though, things are very expensive.  I was trying to push for a second cistern, but I guess they are now JD 2500-4000 depending on the size.  You know that's several months' income Sad

My husband actually is a local and has farmed there for years on and off.  So he knows fairly well the ins and outs.  We'd be trying to grow for at least 6 adults though-- all the food-- so we'd need a huge area.  Also luckily our area is cooler than Amman even in the summer.  So that's helpful!

Shipping to Jordan is crazy now.  We checked into a pallet as that's the cheapest-- but it would be like $1200 plus another $600 in taxes at the port, and now that Aqaba is a "Special Economic Zone" they'll tax you again when you leave it. :/  RIght now we make $1200/month.  So it's not a real option.  That is an amazing deal you got on the shipping!

We actually will have a whole field (we're going for 4 dunums-- about an acre) Smile  That's great since in the winter we can devote portions to chickpeas and lentils as well as favas.  Of course I'll also use beds for cool weather crops.  Luckily his area doesn't freeze like Amman at all.

And yes re: the kindle app on PC!  I planned on reading the SFG while here since I have it checked out.  Then, once I am settled, I'll look into getting e-books of things I need.  I have several professional books (43!) to carry already.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  camprn on 2/27/2014, 8:55 pm

I recommend contacting theSFG Foundation directly to see if there are any contacts in Jordan. The region is going to be challenging to live in and garden. When are you moving? Do you speak Arabic? What city/town are you moving to?
Please send pictures when you begin your garden.
http://businessmirror.com.ph/index.php/en/features/biodiversity/24302-in-home-gardens-there-s-income-and-food-for-urban-poor

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business mirror article

Post  kauairosina on 2/27/2014, 9:38 pm

Such an appropriate link.  Will you be able to access theInternet?

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 10:32 pm

kauairosina-- yep!  They have internet there.

Camprn-- It's actually not that challenging to live or garden there.  I was just interested in the higher yield/space of SFG.  The traditional methods work fine with no irrigation.  Amman gets less water and is different than Hartha.  We'd also live outside the village in the agricultural part.  We would move whenever my husband gets a job, and then it will take about a year to build the house.  I speak enough Arabic to get by and to conduct an archaeological dig lol. 

Amman is a higher elevation and drier place.  NW Jordan is wetter, more mild (not as hot or cold), and greener.  So we'd be about 15 miles from the Sea of Galilee.

I'll try contacting them.  I didn't see anything when I looked, but maybe there is something/someone unlisted.

That article details a lot of what my husband gets so mad about-- the ways that people there are refusing to grow their own food, even as costs rise.  Especially in the NW, all the yards are productive.  Yet most people aren't growing much of anything. Sad

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folks not growing anything

Post  kauairosina on 2/27/2014, 10:44 pm

That is a frustration here in Hawaii also.  We import 90% of our food and we have a fabulous climate to grow food and not enough people are interested.  Our family is working on growing as much as we can for "when the boat don't come".  We are learning to use Kalo (taro), breadfruit, cassava, cacao and other originals.  Between the fact that the barge might not always bring our food and the incredible drought in California you would think more than the 5% of us who pay attention would wake up.

Touched a sore spot there.  I understand your husband's view.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 10:52 pm

kauairosina-- that is so awesome, though, that you are doing that!  That is kind of a homesteading/prepping thing to do Smile  I'm actually doing my dissertation on the heritage (family/religious/cultural) connections to prepping and how lots of people who are trying to be self-sufficient are just doing what people before them have done.  However, in an increasingly urban culture this is seen as odd. Smile

Are you trying passiflora/lilikoi too?  I checked it out and some passiflora like certain P. edulis can be fairly drought tolerant and I figured out I could have some of those instead of the ubiquitous jasmine everyone else has and yet also get fruit from it Smile

Yeah it's so frustrating for him.  He listens to people complain at home and then reminds them they have 1/4 acre plots around their houses but no one wants to budge.

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lilikoi

Post  kauairosina on 2/27/2014, 11:11 pm

I knew I forgot something.  Yes, lilikoi, yellow and purple.  Probably one of my favorite fruits.  I spin the pulp in the blender to loosen it, strain it and pop it in the freezer. Makes any other kind of fruit (our apple bananas, pineapple, papaya) taste wonderful and makes great cheesecake tarts, among other things.  I just borrowed a tiny book from the library today about using lilikoi. I'll bet it would grow well in Jordan.  Maybe I could find a way to get seeds to you after you are settled.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/27/2014, 11:52 pm

Oh, awesome!  Yes, I love it too.  I discovered I adore it paired with mango for jam, and then with plums, peaches, apricots, and all other kinds of things in jam.  I went through a huge jam phase when I was learning to can Smile 

If we move, I'll have to also come back here to defend and present my dissertation-- so I'll also have a second chance to bring a few more things.  I thought at that point I'd have had a chance to look around and see what I want to bring back in addition to my own stuff.  It's kind of hard to think about fitting all your stuff and heirlooms into a few suitcase loads!

HI always looked so pretty to me and like it had such amazing garden potential.  I'll be interested to learn more about your efforts!  And we can commiserate on those around us not doing much. Smile

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  Marc Iverson on 2/28/2014, 12:10 am

Some e-books are only licensed to be sold in certain areas. So people in foreign countries have sometimes found Amazon books inaccessible once they've moved to them, even prevoiusly purchased ones. You might want to go to some of the Amazon forums or elsewhere and check whether you can get Amazon or Nook or other e-books once you're out of the country. If not, you might want to get everything you can while here and have it already preloaded before leaving.

Re your clay soil, if it's not too alkaline, you might want to improve it/"sweeten" its pH, with some gypsum, which can help clay maintain better soil structure for a while, which should have some carry-over effect into conserving water. If gypsum is easily had there.

You say wood is expensive -- are wood trimmings from tree services expensive or inaccessible? The Back to Eden mulching method sounds like a great way to go, on top of your compost, if possible.

It sounds like a lot of your potential success may come down to growing local-adapted plants, at least until you have enough experience to see how flexible you can be with various cultivars of any particular crop.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/28/2014, 12:15 am

There really isn't tree trimming in that area-- at least not often.  Most trees are olives and they burn the clippings (they burn green).  Soil is about 7.8.  So it's definitely alkaline.  Good tip on the gypsum.  I'll look around for it. 

If I got the e-book version I'd probably buy and download it when I had to come back for those couple of months.  That would make it easier.  I'd still prefer the paper version, but we'll see how that goes.  I'll check on Amazon, thanks!

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  Marc Iverson on 2/28/2014, 12:19 am

Your soil is already alkaline enough that you'd better skip the gypsum, which makes soil more alkaline/less acid. Oh well. That's really quite alkaline soil and well out of the ideal range for most veggies. You might want to see if you can bring its pH down a bit. More neutral soil will make some nutrients more available for most veggies. Even with plenty of nutrients in the soil, if the soil is too acid or alkaline, plants can find the nutrients hard to take up.

Sounds like you would do very well to invest in making a compost pile or two or three. With six people contributing, you might get a fair amount going pretty quickly, which you could use for both fertilizer and to help with moisture retention.


Last edited by Marc Iverson on 2/28/2014, 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  chloeasha on 2/28/2014, 12:21 am

Ahh, OK.  I read your gypsum backwards.  Sorry!

Yes, that is our plan!  Compost piles, grey water, and mulch.  Smile

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  sanderson on 2/28/2014, 12:24 am

Archaeological dig! I'm jealous. I hope it is rewarding.

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

Post  Marc Iverson on 2/28/2014, 12:25 am

Good luck!

On another note, you might want to find out if newspapers over there (if they're readily available?) have soy-based inks the way they do here in the U.S. If so, they will make a good cheap carbon source, as you probably know ... but I'm just thinking that I don't know if newspapers over in Jordan still use lead in their inks ... and lead is a no-no.

New things to think about when you move to a new world!

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Re: SFG in a mediterranean climate

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