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First time SFG woes. Please help.

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First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/26/2015, 11:38 pm

Hello all!

I searched around the forums and didn't find exactly what I was looking for.  I hope that someone will have some insights for me. 

This is our first garden.  We are total gardening newbies.  We moved into a house in the Dallas area that had a large 12'x12' raised bed.  I did my research and read the New SFG book.  I tore out the old bed and put in new beds.  One is 4' x 12' and two are smaller 4'x4' beds.  All but one are 10" deep and the other is 6" deep. 

I gave all the soil that was in the old bed to my neighbor and carefully made new mel's mix.  They are all made of new cedar and are lined on the bottom with landscape cloth. We planted bush beans, peas, a tomato, beets, kale, watermelon, some peppers, okra mostly all from seed.  Most all came in quickly and then the rain came.  Most all of the plants turned yellow and sort of stopped growing.  I assumed it was over watering from all the rain we've been getting.  I used a moisture meter around the plants and it read, "wet" in most areas.  I built a frame and covered them with "clear" plastic drop cloths.  That seemed to help, but only a bit.  The plants seemed to green up partially.

Here's the rub.  The soil that I gave my neighbor from the old beds was just in a massive pile in her front yard.  She realized that she probably wasn't going to get to the landscaping that she'd intended for a while so she, "just threw some old leftover vegetable seeds on the soil pile."  The seeds she had almost directly mirrored what I'm trying to grow.  She's done nothing and her plants are going gangbusters!  They are big, lush, green plants and mine are stunted, yellow weaklings.  Many just peaked their heads up and then died.

I'm feeling frustrated as you can imagine, but not without some hope and determination left. 

Did I miss diagnose the problem?  Is it drainage issues?  Nutritional?  I'm more wet than my beds from running in and out covering and uncovering these beds.   I never knew of anyone having to cover their beds constantly, but what do I know? Ha!  Our native soil that is under the beds does have a lot of clay.

If you need more info, I'd be happy to provide whatever I can.

Thank you so much in advance for any guidance you may have!

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  CitizenKate on 5/27/2015, 1:09 am

So far, it sounds like you're doing everything right, but I also know you've received a lot of rain recently.  I agree with your suspicion of over-watering.  It very well could be due to that.  Is your neighbor doing anything to block rainfall?

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  Kelejan on 5/27/2015, 1:57 am

glad you\'re here eyegrieve happy hi

from Kelejan :canada:

It seems as a newbie you have hit some serious wet weather and that certainly is rather hard luck.

I not that experienced, but it seems that the rain may have washed out some of your nutrients; on the other hand we need to look at the compost side of your Mel's Mix as it may be deficient.

Let us know what your compost consists of and  then someone knowledgeable will give you some help.  Did you use bought compost?  Did you fluff up the peat before you mixed it in with the vermiculite and compost?

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  sanderson on 5/27/2015, 3:29 am

Eyegrieve,  Welcome to the Forum from California!  glad you\'re here   You have got to be frustrated, doing everything right , and then this.

At this point, just wait until the weather dries up.  There is a difference between brand new Mel's Mix and old bedding soil, especially if the bedding soil had farm manure added to it over the years.  New Mel's Mix is sometimes a little too sterile when starting off.  It doesn't have all the neat micro-organisms built up that help release the nutrients from the compost.  The rains may have washed out what nutrients had been released.  Over-wet new seedlings can really struggle in the rain.  A little emergency fertilizer may help right now.  What ever you use, whether it is a balanced organic fertilizer or Miracle Grow, use only half of what is directed.

Kelejan suggested describing how you made the Mix, what ingredients you used and their volumes.  At least you will be trouble shooting here while you are waiting on the weather.  Believe me, you are not the only one to have 'new bed" troubles. Embarassed  Yes, I'm speaking from experience.

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  Marc Iverson on 5/27/2015, 4:48 am

Just to take this in a different direction ... it sounds like you're looking at basically remediating your soil, so ... a really good long-term program for remediating your soil is letting it host some red wiggler worms. You might want to check out Josh's worm tube thread, or the "Worm Hilton" hotel, which address hosting worms directly in garden beds and in large containers, respectively.

Hope that doesn't change the subject too much ...

Yellowing as you describe can come from lack of nitrogen. It is a common problem where I live, in the Pacific Northwest. It is caused by ... sound familiar? ... heavy rains washing nitrogen out of the soil.

So you may want to add some more nitrogen to the soil to make up for the heavy rains you've been having. A good balanced compost might hold enough to get you by until the rains calm down.

It's a balancing act, in that you don't want to plant fruiting plants(like tomatoes or beans, for instance) in a bed you may be adding lots of nitrogen to. That is because excess nitrogen promotes leaf and stem growth(hooray lettuce! hooray kale and broccoli raab and spinach!) at the expense of fruit production.

So be careful about trying to amend your soil simply by adding high-nitrogen fertilizer. It's volatile and can disappear quickly, and is much harder to manage than is the addition of a modest amount of richer-than-usual compost mixed well into the first few inches of soil.

Besides, heavy rains can sometimes lead to soil washing out of the bottom of beds anyway, so maybe another inch or so of fresh compost is in order anyway?




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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  AtlantaMarie on 5/27/2015, 9:33 am

Hi Eyegrieve.  Welcome from Atlanta, GA.

I know my first set of beds (last year) gave me a lot of sorrow too.  Part of it for me was that the Mel's Mix (MM) settled & the plants didn't actually have that 6". 

This year I've scaled back a lot (because I didn't do fall cleanup like I should have & am still pulling lots of wind-blown weeds out.  Embarassed )  I also pulled MM out of some boxes & added to the boxes I planted in.  The difference is amazing this year.

So welcome to the club!  Wink   It WILL get better as your garden matures.  Promise!

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/27/2015, 9:51 am

@Kelejan wrote:glad you\'re here eyegrieve happy hi

from Kelejan :canada:

It seems as a newbie you have hit some serious wet weather and that certainly is rather hard luck.

I not that experienced, but it seems that the rain may have washed out some of your nutrients; on the other hand we need to look at the compost side of your Mel's Mix as it may be deficient.

Let us know what your compost consists of and  then someone knowledgeable will give you some help.  Did you use bought compost?  Did you fluff up the peat before you mixed it in with the vermiculite and compost?

I did buy all of the compost.  I used at least four different ones, but mostly five.  Most we're organic.  I had some trouble getting five different ones that were all organic.  I'll try to post image of the bags below.



I didn't really "fluff" the peat moss.  I made sure that I accounted for its compact nature in my calculations and certainly did break it up.

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/27/2015, 9:57 am

So much good advice!  I'm feeling excited again!  Can I uncover the beds if I start moving forward with these soil ammendmments?  I feel like they've been under plastic more than they've been exposed to the air and sun. 

I'll definitely look into enriching the soil.  My compost is still in the works, so I'll have to buy some for now.  Any recommendations there?

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/27/2015, 9:57 am

Thank you everyone for your responses!!  I really appreciate it.




@CitizenKate wrote:So far, it sounds like you're doing everything right, but I also know you've received a lot of rain recently.  I agree with your suspicion of over-watering.  It very well could be due to that.  Is your neighbor doing anything to block rainfall?

My neighbor just sprinkled the seeds and walked away.  Those plants have been through all of the rain that's come and it's been a lot!

Languagesen>en YahooCEerror

In answer to your questions:

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/27/2015, 10:01 am

@Marc Iverson wrote:Just to take this in a different direction ... it sounds like you're looking at basically remediating your soil, so ... a really good long-term program for remediating your soil is letting it host some red wiggler worms.  You might want to check out Josh's worm tube thread, or the "Worm Hilton" hotel, which address hosting worms directly in garden beds and in large containers, respectively.

Hope that doesn't change the subject too much ...

Yellowing as you describe can come from lack of nitrogen.  It is a common problem where I live, in the Pacific Northwest.  It is caused by ... sound familiar? ... heavy rains washing nitrogen out of the soil.

So you may want to add some more nitrogen to the soil to make up for the heavy rains you've been having.  A good balanced compost might hold enough to get you by until the rains calm down.

It's a balancing act, in that you don't want to plant fruiting plants(like tomatoes or beans, for instance) in a bed you may be adding lots of nitrogen to. That is because excess nitrogen promotes leaf and stem growth(hooray lettuce!  hooray kale and broccoli raab and spinach!) at the expense of fruit production.  

So be careful about trying to amend your soil simply by adding high-nitrogen fertilizer.  It's volatile and can disappear quickly, and is much harder to manage than is the addition of a modest amount of richer-than-usual compost mixed well into the first few inches of soil.

Besides, heavy rains can sometimes lead to soil washing out of the bottom of beds anyway, so maybe another inch or so of fresh compost is in order anyway?




I'm on it! 
Worms...check!
Maybe, should I try and salvage what I can from this season while trying to get my soil up to snuff and start fresh next season?  At this point there's a bunch of empty squares.

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Fe: First time SFG woes.

Post  GloriaG on 5/27/2015, 10:01 am

Hello eyegrieve,

I'm just north of you in lower Denton county.  We're experiencing roughly the same weather conditions you are. 

There are actually two things going on in the garden right now.  As you surmised, the massive amounts of rain leach the nutrients from the soil which also weakens plants and leaves them susceptible to diseases.  Plants (like people) can only grow as much as the LEAST amount of nutrient they receive. So when nutrients wash away, the plants are starved.

I have been adding organic supplements since the rain started.  I use blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, tums for calcium, etc.  Or a good ORGANIC (not chemical) fertilizer with the middle number (phosphorus) the highest.  Your plants will tell you when they're happy. Just go slow and don't add everything at once.  Too much is as bad as not enough!

Covering is good - as long as you don't block the wind which will promote disease. 

To combat the diseases caused by excess moisture, I am spraying twice per week.  The first spray is a purchased compost tea like Garrett Juice (I can't get to my compost bin), three days later I spray with a Copper fungicide in week one or Powdered milk in week two.  (Powdered milk is mixed at 1 1/3 cup to a half gallon of water)  Don't forget with your sprays to always add a few drops of baby shampoo as a spreading agent.

I suspect that the reason your neighbor is having better luck than you is due to several factors - Your garden (like mine) is FLAT and filled with a very porous medium.  The rain washes right through the ground carrying water soluble nutrients with it.  On the other hand, your neighbor left her soil in a mound.  That shape helps the water run off and doesn't remove as much nutrient.  In addition the soil  you gave her is much less porous than our Mels Mix and therefore the nutrients don't wash out as much in this specific situation. 

Please understand these problems are temporary - your garden will excel once we get past this extreme weather.  You just happened to start your garden in a record-breaking year!

Good luck!
Gloria

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/27/2015, 10:21 am

@GloriaG wrote:Hello eyegrieve,

I'm just north of you in lower Denton county.  We're experiencing roughly the same weather conditions you are. 

There are actually two things going on in the garden right now.  As you surmised, the massive amounts of rain leach the nutrients from the soil which also weakens plants and leaves them susceptible to diseases.  Plants (like people) can only grow as much as the LEAST amount of nutrient they receive. So when nutrients wash away, the plants are starved.

I have been adding organic supplements since the rain started.  I use blood meal, bone meal, kelp meal, tums for calcium, etc.  Or a good ORGANIC (not chemical) fertilizer with the middle number (phosphorus) the highest.  Your plants will tell you when they're happy. Just go slow and don't add everything at once.  Too much is as bad as not enough!

Covering is good - as long as you don't block the wind which will promote disease. 

To combat the diseases caused by excess moisture, I am spraying twice per week.  The first spray is a purchased compost tea like Garrett Juice (I can't get to my compost bin), three days later I spray with a Copper fungicide in week one or Powdered milk in week two.  (Powdered milk is mixed at 1 1/3 cup to a half gallon of water)  Don't forget with your sprays to always add a few drops of baby shampoo as a spreading agent.

I suspect that the reason your neighbor is having better luck than you is due to several factors - Your garden (like mine) is FLAT and filled with a very porous medium.  The rain washes right through the ground carrying water soluble nutrients with it.  On the other hand, your neighbor left her soil in a mound.  That shape helps the water run off and doesn't remove as much nutrient.  In addition the soil  you gave her is much less porous than our Mels Mix and therefore the nutrients don't wash out as much in this specific situation. 

Please understand these problems are temporary - your garden will excel once we get past this extreme weather.  You just happened to start your garden in a record-breaking year!

Good luck!
Gloria
@GloriaG Wow!!

Thank you!  That's so much information.  I was seriously feeling as though it wasn't going to work for us and we put a lot of time into those beds, soils, etc.  All of these ideas are giving me great hope.

Probably a silly question, but How would I cover and not block the wind?

I'm looking into getting the other things you mentioned going.

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  donnainzone5 on 5/27/2015, 11:10 am

It looks like you had several bags (different brands, though) of organic compost. These probably have quite similar ingredients, and I'd bet that they all contain peat moss, humus, and/or rice hulls, which have much the same effect of diluting the compost component.  

The Black Kow and mushroom compost are two, and the organic compost makes three.  All told, it would appear that, in effect, you used three different composts, which would account for a lack of nutrients.  Compounded with the heavy rain, I imagine that your plants are suffering from nutrient deficiency, as well as a surplus of moisture to wash out much of what remains and promote disease.  

Can you find chicken compost?  Cow, perhaps?  Cotton?  Mint?

Please don't give up; things will only get better!

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Fe: First time SFG woes.

Post  GloriaG on 5/27/2015, 11:29 am

Hi eyegrieve,

If you have hoops set up like the ribs of a Conestoga wagon, I would make a cover that just goes over the top and leaves the sides open as high as the plants are tall.  I know this leaves the edges exposed to the rain, but it will cut out quite a bit of the water.

Don't forget that plants can grow in all water - hydroponically - as long as the nutrient levels are correct.

I'm not covering right now - although I do whenever it threatens hail. 

I use strips of plastic window screening.  It comes in 48" wide rolls which are just wide enough to cover the SFG top.  The screen is porous so some rain goes through, but most of it rolls off because of the curvature of the hoops.  The big advantage is that hail bounces off (like a trampoline), wind can blow through and heat doesn't build up underneath.  

BTW: I also use this as my sun shade in hot summers.



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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  eyegrieve on 5/27/2015, 11:39 am

@GloriaG wrote:Hi eyegrieve,

If you have hoops set up like the ribs of a Conestoga wagon, I would make a cover that just goes over the top and leaves the sides open as high as the plants are tall.  I know this leaves the edges exposed to the rain, but it will cut out quite a bit of the water.

I'm not covering right now - although I do whenever it threatens hail. 

I use strips of plastic window screening.  It comes in 48" wide rolls which are just wide enough to cover the SFG top.  The screen is porous so some rain goes through, but most of it rolls off because of the curvature of the hoops.  The big advantage is that hail bounces off (like a trampoline), wind can blow through and heat doesn't build up underneath.  

BTW: I also use this as my sun shade in hot summers.

Gloria

I have just those sort of ribs set up.  I'll try what your're saying, only covering the top porotion.  How do you adhere the window screening, (I bought some shade cloth, probably similar stuff, right?)?  Do you just clamp it tight? 

Also, off subject, but I was curious about creating shade from our brutal sun.  How much do you shade your plants in summer?  Maybe I should start a second post for this?

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Fe: First time SFG woes.

Post  GloriaG on 5/27/2015, 11:44 am

I use clamps - they look a bit like large clothespins. 

I shade as little as possible.

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  sanderson on 5/27/2015, 2:16 pm

Overhead protection of plants against heavy rains, hail, brutal winds or scorching summer heat. Once you have the frame work set up, you can change out the cover material as needed, or not even needed. Yes, leave the lower sides of the plastic open for air circulation during rain. Bridal tulle against the white butterfly is total enclosure. Overhead sun shade with curtain sheers, Agribon (sp?), old sheets. The western sun is the most brutal.

Please keep the faith. The first summer is the biggest learning curve and folks are here to help you. Embarassed They sure got me through the first summer. I would have tossed in the towel otherwise.

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  camprn on 5/27/2015, 2:36 pm

Top dress your new bed with as much quality compost as you can fit into the bed. that should perk things up a bit.

YOU have had just awful weather. PLease remember, some years are better than others.

Hang in there!

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  Sunsanvil on 5/28/2015, 10:09 am

I cant add to all of the excellent analysis and advice given, but I want to say to you and anyone else who ever gets less than text book perfect results: Never loose heart....and despite what some people will say, its not always your fault or something you can address (within reason).

Last year, 3rd summer for our beds, some things just didn't do well at all, and what did produce was slow to do so. I started to obsess over the minutiae but after talking to several other home gardeners in our area (none of whom are SFGers), I discovered they had pretty much the exact same results on a vegetable by vegetable basis so we chalked it up to a lousy year weather/growing conditions wise (in an area which is already less than ideal), ate what did do well, and are looking to this year with optimism.

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Re: First time SFG woes. Please help.

Post  sanderson on 5/28/2015, 1:37 pm

@Sunsanvil wrote:I want to say to you and anyone else who ever gets less than text book perfect results:  Never loose heart....and despite what some people will say, its not always your fault or something you can address (within reason).
Good advice

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