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2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  BeetlesPerSqFt on 3/16/2017, 6:47 pm

A/B1. Your statement isn't incorrect, but this might give more insight: Summer squash are generally meant to be eaten immature (before they develop mature seeds and a tough skin or rind) in the summer. Winter squash are meant to be eaten in the winter, after being harvested mature in the fall (definitely before frost) and cured. You can eat mature summer squash and baby winter squash, but each tastes better if eaten as they have been bred/selected for.

A/B 2. Yes, planted at the same time - frost will kill them both. I've read they don't like being transplanted, but plenty of people do it. If you start indoors and transplant I'd say: don't let them get pot bound, make sure your soil is warm enough, try to expose the roots to air as little as possible, and make sure to water the transplants in immediately, with warm water.

A/B3. Almost all summer squash/zucchini are bush. Vining varieties are very difficult to find. I grow Table Dainty which is a vining zucchini. Baker Creek sells that one. Trailing Green Marrow seed is available at Sand Hill Preservation Center. Those are the only two I've been able to find in the U.S.  See also, D.

C. Other summer squash varieties: pattypan or scallop squash. There are a few more, but mostly they look like differently colored or shaped zucchini.

D. Vines are the default for winter squash, but you can get bush varieties, typically for those winter squash that have smaller fruit. There are bush forms of acorn squash, delicata, butternut (Burpee's Butterbush), and buttercup squash. Bushkin was apparently a bush pumpkin, but seed is no longer available. "Semi-bush" forms of winter squash also exist, but I'm not clear on the definition/distinction. There are semi-bush pumpkin varieties. Maybe semi-bush are more suitable to growing up a trellis, but just have short vines instead of really long ones?

I had a hard time making that decision, too: I grew crookneck but it was mostly a random choice. They do start to get tough rinds if you let them get too big, I don't know whether the straight ones are any different.

Trombocino is an exception (or so I've read, I haven't had it, may grow it this year for the first time) to not eating winter squash young - it's good young, maybe even better young depending on your taste/texture preferences.  I haven't grown spaghetti squash (I don't get it - it's that stuff you scrape out of pumpkins and put in the compost... there's no actual squash in those things! Razz )

Place your peppers and eggplants such that they get more light than the squash, so the squash doesn't shade them (grow the trombocino and spaghetti squash up trellises behind them.) Try to put bush squash on corners/edges so you can direct it over the edge of the bed to prevent it from hogging all 9 squares that it would prefer to take up. For tomatoes vs squash, I don't know which I would put in front of the other. An indeterminate tomato on a trellis could get higher than a bush squash if it grew fast enough.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 3/16/2017, 11:11 pm

Beetles, thanks for that wonderful response. I have to re-read it a few times to make sure I understand it.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  yolos on 3/16/2017, 11:31 pm

Do you have a problem with Squash Vine Borers (SVB) where you live????
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  BeetlesPerSqFt on 3/16/2017, 11:48 pm

@ralitaco wrote:Beetles, thanks for that wonderful response. I have to re-read it a few times to make sure I understand it.
I do tend to run long-winded about gardening (and bugs)! If anything is unclear, just ask me to reword, or frame a different question, and I'll give it a go.

Yolos' question is an important/relevant one when choosing which varieties of squash to plant.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 3/16/2017, 11:53 pm

@yolos wrote:Do you have a problem with Squash Vine Borers (SVB) where you live????
Apparently we had some last season, but not the one before.
Why do you ask? Is there a particular variety to plant or avoid?
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  yolos on 3/17/2017, 9:17 am

Yes,  C. Pepo squash have a hollow stem.  The SVB will attack them and kill them.  For these varieties, if I do not use Tulle, they will all die.

The C. Moschata squash have a more solid stem and are less susceptible to SVB but they can still be attached but are less likely than C. Pepo.  

Here is a link describing some C. Moschata varieties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita_moschata

 I grew Tromboncino and Butternut Squash last year.  One vine did get an SVB attach but survived.  

Also a write up of a very knowledgeable grower who has SVB problems most years. 

C. Moschata Summer Squash Varieties Tolerant of Squash Vine Borers
Okiedawn OK Zone 7March 13, 2015
We spend an inordinate amount of time here in summer discussing the horrible plague of Squash Vine Borers and their ability to completely wipe out plantings of squash and pumpkins (particular those that are Cucurbita Pepo and Cucurbita maxima) in time at all.
I've found it pretty easy to work around the issue with winter squash, choosing to grow varieties that are Cucurbita moschata (like Seminole pumpkin, Musquee de Provence, Long Island Cheese, Butternut, Lunga di Napoli, etc.) and sometimes C. argyrosperma (Green-striped cushaw, orange-striped cushaw, white cushaw, etc. ). And, if you choose, you can harvest any of the above and use them as summer squash if you harvest them very young and small (usually just a day or two or three after they bloom, are fertilized and begin to enlarge). You also can grow Tahitian melon winter squash or Trombocino squash to harvest early and young for use as winter squash, or later on as larger, mature winter squash. I'm not real fond of the taste and texture of either of those two.
I prefer to let my winter squash varieties grow and actually become winter squash, so have been growing other types of C. moschata squash that are used for summer squash. Since they aren't real well-known here in OK, I thought I'd mention them here in case anyone is looking for a summer squash variety that generally can outlive the attack of the squash vine borers.
I've grown avocado squash (so-named because the fruit do look somewhat like avocados) for 3 or 4 years now, and the two varieties I grow are Teot Bat Put and Early Bulam, both of which are hybrids. One advantage of growing these hybrids is that they've been bred to have short internode spacing which allows them to produce more fruit in less space. (Every C. moschata type of squash I've ever grown has been a really rampant grower.) Because C. moschata types of squash have solid vines, rather than the hollow vines that C. pepo and C. maxima have, the squash vine borers cannot easily tunnel their way through the vines, killing the plants in the process.
This year I've added a third variety of C. moschata summer squash to my grow list, and I'll continue to search out others. It is called Meot Jaeng I AE and it is a hybrid as well. This one is not an avocado squash. It is a Korean summer squash that looks more like a zucchini.
I'll still plant standard green-skinned zucchini and yellow summer squash in the spring for the early harvest, but I'll be counting on the varieties discussed above to continue the squash harvest throughout the summer even after the SVBs show up and do their dirty work.

I hope this info about these varieties is helpful for those of you who struggle every year with the squash vine borers. I purchased seed for these varieties from Kitazawa Seed Company. It is likely that Evergreen Seeds also carries these varieties or something like them. I've just never taken the time to wade through all the listings on their website looking for C. moschata varieties.


Some other sources
http://www.kitazawaseed.com/seeds_summer_squash.html
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 3/17/2017, 9:59 pm

THANK YOU YOLOS AND BEETLES!!

Apparently I have some reading and research to do
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  BeetlesPerSqFt on 3/17/2017, 10:32 pm

@yolos wrote:C. Moschata Summer Squash Varieties Tolerant of Squash Vine Borers
Okiedawn OK Zone 7March 13, 2015

This year I've added a third variety of C. moschata summer squash to my grow list, and I'll continue to search out others. It is called Meot Jaeng I AE and it is a hybrid as well. This one is not an avocado squash. It is a Korean summer squash that looks more like a zucchini.
Thanks for sharing that yolos! Much more complete than what I could have provided. My Table Dainty seemed to get either SVB or maybe some other borer in some of the stems, but not the main one, so it lost a few leaves and kept going. But I've only grown it one year, so I'm not sure how much of what I experienced was luck. I added the Meot Jaeng I AE to my 'consider for 2018' list.
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CARROT HARVEST #2!!!!!

Post  ralitaco on 4/2/2017, 10:22 pm

Another success story, at least in my book...my carrots. I had 2 squares left and I went ahead and pulled them the other day. This time, I made sure to cut off the greens and put them in the fridge. While I had 2 that were nice and fat, most were on the slender side and several were itty-bitty babies.

Carrot tops

Fresh from the MM. The ones on the left were from one square and the ones on the bottom were from the other square. 

After a little rinse with the hose
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Cabbage

Post  ralitaco on 4/2/2017, 10:25 pm

I planted these cabbage back in Oct but they were in trouble from the get-go...they fell upside down off the table. 1 of them headed up very nicely but the others are struggling. So my question is should I leave these baseball to softball sized cabbages and let them grow or is it time to pull them up and make the most of what I have.

My DW sauteed this head with ground beef, tomatoes, onions...It was excellent!
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Onions and Garlic

Post  ralitaco on 4/2/2017, 10:49 pm

Here are some pictures of my Onions and Garlic. I have never grown them before and am not sure what to expect or what to do next. From my reading on this forum, I believe I should see the tops of the onions and garlic AND the tops should die off and be bent over before they are harvested. I am just not sure what the time frame should be.

These were all planted back on October 3rd.





This one I could see was obviously bad. I tried to pull it out by the shoot, but it pulled off. This is what remained and rather slimy.


On a side note, I did clean out the beds. I removed the leaves and the weeds.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  yolos on 4/3/2017, 12:38 am

@ralitaco wrote:Here are some pictures of my Onions and Garlic. I have never grown them before and am not sure what to expect or what to do next. From my reading on this forum, I believe I should see the tops of the onions and garlic AND the tops should die off and be bent over before they are harvested. I am just not sure what the time frame should be.
Time frame in my area for garlic harvest last year was 6/9/16.  I planted them in late Oct or early Nov 2015.  Also depends on the variety and weather.  I think our summer weather is pretty much the same.  Can't help with the onions, this is the first year I have made a concerted effort to grow a decent crop of onions.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/3/2017, 1:13 am

Thanks Yolos.
I didn't realize they would take that long. At least I have something growing. If I need the squares, I can pull them I guess.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  yolos on 4/3/2017, 10:05 am

@ralitaco wrote:Thanks Yolos.
I didn't realize they would take that long. At least I have something growing. If I need the squares, I can pull them I guess.
I looked back a couple years just in case last year was off.  So last year I harvested the garlic on 6/9 and the previous year on 5/29.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  sanderson on 4/3/2017, 6:30 pm

RT, Nice looking carrots! I have had cabbages that never really formed a solid ball by the time they needed to come out of the bed. At least you had a good one for dinner. Wink

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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/3/2017, 9:09 pm

@sanderson wrote:RT,  Nice looking carrots!  
Embarassed


@sanderson wrote:I have had cabbages that never really formed a solid ball by the time they needed to come out of the bed.  At least you had a good one for dinner. Wink
It was good too. we even used some of the outer leaves. They were a bit tougher but I think if they were boiled they would have softened up nicely.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/3/2017, 9:12 pm

@yolos wrote:I looked back a couple years just in case last year was off.  So last year I harvested the garlic on 6/9 and the previous year on 5/29.
Thank you. I am trying to keep a gardening journal...it's sporadic, but at least there's a little something to go by. That's how I knew when I planted them.

I did not do any research and just planted the onions and garlic. I guess I thought they'd somehow grow miraculously over the winter in the cold, even when nothing else grows. Fortunately, I don't have any plans yet, but if I need the squares, I am thinking I will have green onions. Isn't that what they are called if you pick them early?
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  CapeCoddess on 4/4/2017, 12:32 pm

Those cabbages are remarkable! Were they covered?
CC
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  BeetlesPerSqFt on 4/4/2017, 10:14 pm

@ralitaco wrote:Here are some pictures of my Onions and Garlic. I have never grown them before and am not sure what to expect or what to do next. From my reading on this forum, I believe I should see the tops of the onions and garlic AND the tops should die off and be bent over before they are harvested. I am just not sure what the time frame should be.

These were all planted back on October 3rd.
Onions sowed from seed (not sets)?
Do you know what variety of onions they were?
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/4/2017, 11:46 pm

@CapeCoddess wrote:Those cabbages are remarkable!
They are???? The one was a good size, the rest I thought were small. They have heads no bigger than a baseball.
Is that to be expected?
Was the one big one the fluke?



@CapeCoddess wrote:Were they covered?
CC
No. they were pretty much planted back in October and left to their own devices.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/4/2017, 11:50 pm

@BeetlesPerSqFt wrote:Onions sowed from seed (not sets)?
Sets

@BeetlesPerSqFt wrote:Do you know what variety of onions they were?
Sets Very Happy

No idea at all. I don't even remember where I bought them. If I had to guess I would say yellow.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  BeetlesPerSqFt on 4/5/2017, 12:40 am

@ralitaco wrote:
@BeetlesPerSqFt wrote:Onions sowed from seed (not sets)?
Sets

@BeetlesPerSqFt wrote:Do you know what variety of onions they were?
Sets  Very Happy

No idea at all. I don't even remember where I bought them. If I had to guess I would say yellow.
I asked about variety because there are long-day onions that northern gardeners (such as myself) plant and short-day onions that growers in your area would plant. There are also neutral-day=intermediate onions that do ok either way. I like to hope that the store you got the sets from would have only been selling the right sort... but I haven't found that to be the case for seeds in the big-box stores near me. Reading more, I'm seeing claims that short-day onions aren't sold as sets?:
http://www.patwelsh.com/vegetables-fruits/why-short-day-onions-do-not-make-sets/

I don't have a good understanding of what happens when long-day onion sets are grown in the South, besides the general 'doesn't work' sentiment I'm seeing. But if they are neutral/intermediate onion sets, I think they should still form bulbs.

It looks like onions grow over the winter should be harvest-able in the spring, but I don't know when -- if the tops haven't flopped I don't think they're ready.
So... still incomplete information... but hopefully this helps, none-the-less!
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/5/2017, 12:43 am

@BeetlesPerSqFt wrote:It looks like onions grow over the winter should be harvest-able in the spring, but I don't know when -- if the tops haven't flopped I don't think they're ready.
So... still incomplete information... but hopefully this helps, none-the-less!
Thanks so much. I'll let them be for now, especially, since I don't have any plans yet for what to plant.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  ralitaco on 4/6/2017, 3:31 pm

@ralitaco wrote:
AFTER:
10-24-2016 6:20pm
In one of the photos above, you can see the shadows they cast on the bed.

Hopefully in a few months I will be posting photos of the stumps gone and more beds being added.
Well, it's been a few month and I have not done a thing there. Still have ALL the stumps, have NOT built any new beds. Just generally being a slacker and now spring is here and so is the time to plant.

Since I have done nothing to prepare this area, I am thinking about...OMG I don't know how to say this...I...I...I...I am...thinking...about...about...(deep breath)...PLANTING DIRECTLY IN THE GROUND!
There I said it! I am not happy I said it, but it had to be said. I know it borders on sacrilege or heresy or blasphemy, but I feel I may have no other option.
Razz

I am thinking that the area along the fence may have some decent soil or at least not be completely sand because for years that area was just covered in leaves. I am sure they broke down and between raking and mowing, perhaps they have been mixed in somewhat.

I do have plans to work on my SFG beds this weekend and may have some of last years compost left over. If I do, I will mix that in. But before that, I will have to check and see if I can even get anything planted there as it had a pretty good root mat at one time.

I still have a bunch of Blue Lake Pole Beans from several years ago. I am thinking of just planting them all in a #@% along the fence.
I also have some pumpkin seeds that I have never been able to get to grow much at all in the SFG.
Then I have some Oregon Sugar Pod II Peas that did not do well in my SFG...I think I got 1 edible pod. Again, I may just put them in #@% along the fence.
I have some Artichokes too but the package says to plant in the fall for spring harvest.
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Re: 2017 SFG Adventures in Hampstead, NC

Post  CapeCoddess on 4/6/2017, 4:13 pm

@ralitaco wrote:
@CapeCoddess wrote:Those cabbages are remarkable!
They are???? The one was a good size, the rest I thought were small. They have heads no bigger than a baseball.
Is that to be expected?
Was the one big one the fluke?



@CapeCoddess wrote:Were they covered?
CC
No. they were pretty much planted back in October and left to their own devices.

My cabbages NEVER head up...so ANY size is better than what I get. I end up eating the leaves.
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