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Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

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Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  boffer on 3/9/2010, 8:53 pm

I'm a big TT SFG fan. Here's a thread listing some of the reasons you might want to try one.

http://squarefoot.creatingforum.com/general-sfg-talk-f5/tabletops-take-sfg-to-a-higher-level-t41.htm



This thread is about building a TT SFG.

In it's simplest form, a TT is a SFG bed sitting off the ground, at the height of your preference. Kitchen counters are typically 36 inches high, and that is the height of most of my beds. For beds 4x4 and smaller, the simplest solution is to attach a piece of 3/4 inch plywood, with a couple 1/4 inch drain holes in each square, to the bottom of your box, and set it on something. It could be something free or cheap like cinder blocks, an old cabinet, old roll around toolbox, sawhorses, a table, an upside down cart, a trailer frame, a couple chairs, a picnic table or benches, a metal garbage can, a barrel, or the edge of a deck that's the right height; I'm sure you can think of others. Perhaps you want to experiment one summer with one box to see if you like TT SFG. These would all work, with little investment, in case you didn't like it.

Here's some ideas for a more permanent set-up. Cinder blocks are stable and sturdy if you like the look. If you place 2 of the block legs longwise in one direction, and the other 2 legs turned 90 degrees, you will eliminate most of the wiggle in the table. Always place your blocks with the holes up; this is the position they are designed to carry weight in.





This is my neighbor's TT on saw horses. They are roughly 3x8. He spent a lot of time making quality saw horses, but now he is beginning to convert them to steel frames.





In the above picture, notice the the angle of the legs that create a large, stable footprint. In the picture below, the top of the leg has been notched to carry the load of the horizontal board. This is a technique that was perfected way back when carpenters wouldn't dream of buying a sawhorse. It's stable, solid, and doesn't wiggle. My neighbor did his the old school way-with hand tools. Notice the hardware cloth used for the bottom. More about that farther on.







If saw horses don't strike your fancy, maybe using 4x4 posts for legs will. I have made TTs with 4x4 posts, but I don't have pictures of the finished product. I did take some pictures to show how to do it. Probably the simplest way is to use an angle hangar, available at your favorite hardware where all the other construction fasteners are located. You'll need eight, two per leg.

This box is upside down, with the leg sticking up in the air. I only had one angle hangar on hand for the picture, but each leg gets two. The hangars use special nails: 8d-10d, 11/4-11/2 inches long. You'll find them near where you found the hangars. Important: every nail hole in the hangar must be used (I think there's 12 per hangar). The weight of the SFG bed is under the max load of the hangar, but still, be safe, do it right.






The hangars will carry the weight OK, but they'll tend to wiggle. Put on knee braces. They look like this, 2 per leg.






But, if you're handy with tools, hand or power, and you would enjoy the satisfaction of making something the old school way, cut corner tenons on your leg tops.





See how the weight of the box sits on top of the post; this way nails and screws aren't carrying the weight. Each corner should have knee braces on it. Another plus, the 4x4 takes up less space inside the box.






These two methods of attaching posts are simple to do, and I feel comfortable recommending them because I know they will hold the weight. rds1955 had mentioned to me the idea of using 4 inch pvc pipe for legs. Compression strength-wise they would work, but I haven't worked out attachment and fastening details that would be feasible for most everybody. I'd like to hear about your methods, if you've used other materials for legs.


My last suggestion for TT legs is a steel frame table. Here's a sample:





Here it is with a box on it. I have plywood on this box because I'm using it for an experiment this summer. At the end of the season, I'll take the plywood off and just use the welded wire that I already put on the frame. (I'll lose the zip ties then, too)







If you were to have one made, here's the cheapest way: use angle iron, 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 x 1/8 for the whole thing. Big ball park cost: 90 cents a foot for material, 1-2 hours of shoptime, depending on details. You could spend more for round or square legs, or you could you use pvc pipe as sleeves to cover the angle iron. Or you can keep your eyes open for stuff like one of these carts. It was a steal for a buck each. I figure one hour to strip it, flip it, remove the casters, and paint it. I could leave the casters on it, but I don't have any concrete in my SFG area.







Here's some of my steel framed TTs. I'm trying to get them consolidated this year so I can put up deer fencing. Table sizes are all different, based strictly on what materials I had available when it was time to make a box. TT's can be spaced closer together than beds on the ground.














TT SFG bottoms: Plywood vs. hardware cloth


I've heard a number of folks say they've had plywood bottoms on their TTs for over 5 years, and I believe them. But in my climate, it would never happen. That's why I use hardware cloth for my bottoms. All my boxes are made of pressure treated 2x's lined with 6 mil plastic.

Folks with plywood bottoms also say their boxes warm up just as quickly as their boxes on the ground. I would say my hardware cloth bottoms warm up a little slower. Maybe 7-10 days. For my gardening practices, it's irrelevant.

Don't try to save money using chicken wire. It won't work. Hardware cloth can be attached with screws with washers, nails bent over, wire fence staples, or ?. I space mine every 5 inches or so.

For a 6 inch tall box I recommend putting in 3 bottom supports on 12 inch centers, using 2x2s. If the box is taller, you could use 2x4s on 16 inch centers. I mount mine inside the box using 2x4 hangars. The hangar comes with nail holes for 2x4s. You'll have to drill a hole where marked for 2x2s. With a little patience, all the fasteners can be hidden on the inside of the box. Be sure to fasten to the bottom supports, too.






I waited till my neighbor was at church so I didn't have to tell him I needed some 'what not to do pictures". Here he used old hand railing which is OK. But, the spacing is way too wide, and it's secured with one screw. Nails and screws aren't intended to carry weight like this. If you put your supports inside the box, there's no visible sag.






Here's an old bed frame. The springs offer enough support to use chicken wire..






For TT beds bigger than 4x4, you're on your own. A 4x8 bed holds over half a yard, and when the soil is saturated-we're starting to talk about some serious weight. Personally, for a 4x8 bed I would increase the size of the boards. So unless you have free/cheap wood on hand, two 4x4s are probably cheaper and easier to build than a 4x8.

These are just some ideas to get you going. If you have suggestions that have worked for you, please post them.


Last edited by boffer on 3/12/2010, 12:58 am; edited 7 times in total

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TT garden built today

Post  Cross_stitcher on 3/12/2010, 4:11 am

New SFGer here. By a stroke of luck, the old Steelcase utility table I listed on Craig's list for FREE didn't find a taker last week. It then occurred to us that this could be a good base for a TT SFG. We used redwood 2x6s and added a plywood base. Lined it with vinyl and drilled the drainage holes. It's 2' x 4' -- good size for beginners, I figure. Purchased the materials for Mel's Mix today. Hope I haven't made a serious error with the vermiculite... I could only find medium grade. Tomorrow we mix it and plant! I have been a conventional gardener for years and have many seeds on hand. (My biggest complaint about my traditional garden is not the weeding but the invasive tree roots. We have a small yard with a large redwood tree as well as neighbor's perimeter trees to contend with . For this reason alone, we've had to rototill every year.) We'll continue to use this garden plot for tall or deep growers like tomatoes and sugar snap peas, and try lettuce, radishes, green onion and small herbs on the TT. Any suggestions, especially about the vermiculite?

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  chocolatepop on 3/12/2010, 9:00 am

Question Boff,

I am going to modify my old college and turn it into a TT. Last year I cut it down and made a table out of it to hold the 3 and 5 gallon buckets for my maters and peppers, but thought I would like the TT idea better.

BUT... It is painted on the top with exterior paint/stain. I plan on just adding some sides to it and putting down some heavy mil plastic, do you think that will be enough?

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  boffer on 3/12/2010, 9:45 am

CP
I don't know what a college is. I use lots of pressure treated wood and occasionally roofing products, and cover them with 6mil. Works for me.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  chocolatepop on 3/12/2010, 3:34 pm

Opps Boff it was SUPPOSED to be my old college loft (like bed raiser). Where do you get the 6mil plastic? Just at a big box store?

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  boffer on 3/12/2010, 4:20 pm

Yes

It's a common item for contractors. It doesn't tear as easy. Comes in black and clear(looks white). I use whatever I have on hand

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  chocolatepop on 3/12/2010, 4:26 pm

My hero, as always. Sorry for the hijack, but should I also do drainage holes? Here is a pic of the "table" with my containers from last year.




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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  mckr3441 on 3/12/2010, 4:47 pm

Hey Chocolate!!!! Good to see you are back. Was waiting for you. Your avatar looks YUMMY. Bet that's from last year's garden. Yes?

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  chocolatepop on 3/12/2010, 4:53 pm

Great to see everyone!!!

yeah, thats last years stash! I will BARELY have enough to make it to next harvest But I should be able to dip into the jarred chunk tomatoes. I ended last season suppliment my tomato stash with some from my mother in laws garden and the farmers market. No shame, much better than the local grocery store!

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TT SFG

Post  mckr3441 on 3/12/2010, 5:09 pm

Boffer... your instructions are awesome
We're going to make TTs for our 91 year old neighbor who just can't do the row thing anymore. We have an old desk and an old chest of drawers we were going to put them on. Probably will be 2x4s. Guess the desk and dresser should hold the weight. What do you think?

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TT boxes

Post  ander217 on 5/12/2010, 8:22 am

Awesome post, Boffer.

Claire, thanks for the idea about using furniture.

Now we just have to choose the best way from so many great ideas to make my MIL's box.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  IzzysMom on 5/12/2010, 10:58 pm

Hmmm... now you've got me thinking! When I bought my house, there were 3 wooden picnic tables left in the garage! Could I just turn the tops into boxes, and drill holes for drainage? Hmmm... I'll have to measure and inspect them tomorrow! Thanks for this great post!!!

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  boffer on 5/12/2010, 11:11 pm

Cool idea! A while back, in another thread, we were playing with numbers, and determined that a 6 inch 4x4 box full of saturated Mel's Mix weighed in the 250-300 pound range. That gives you a rough idea of how much weight the table needs to support

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  new2this on 5/13/2010, 9:06 am

Wow, Boffer....those TT's are nice!

Another idea for those looking into TT gardening:

Feedbunkers - I saw one for sale a while back; looked about 8" deep or so, and maybe 8' long. I thought it would be perfect for this sort of thing. Maybe CraigsList or someplace like that? Anyway....just a thought...........

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TT boxes

Post  ander217 on 5/14/2010, 7:10 am

My Sweetie finished the boxes for his mother. He built three boxes, 1' x 2' x 6", from stained cedar. The size was dictated by the length of old cedar cabinet doors he scrounged from our attic. (He called me a packrat for refusing to throw them out when we refaced our kitchen cabinets. Ha.) One box will go on the ground for tomatoes, and we're still trying to figure out the best table top for the other two boxes.

We're going down there next weekend to set them up, so I'll let you know what we finally settle on - to settle them on.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  Furbalsmom on 10/2/2010, 10:03 pm

Boffer, So glad to find this old thread. Your great instructions and illustrations are what turned the tables (hehe) for my DH to agree to make the 3 - 4 X 4 TTs for me this fall.
We are caretakers at a county park and recreation area. Our camphost is currently away for a month but will be returning in early November. His wife had a stroke 2 yrs ago and has to use a walker to get around. She misses her gardening as she can't get down to garden. I am hoping I can talk the camphost into making one for her too.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  jerzyjen on 10/23/2010, 10:00 am

[quote="boffer

But, if you're handy with tools, hand or power, and you would enjoy the satisfaction of making something the old school way, cut corner tenons on your leg tops.





See how the weight of the box sits on top of the post; this way nails and screws aren't carrying the weight. Each corner should have knee braces on it. Another plus, the 4x4 takes up less space inside the box.






[/quote]

Boffer - Question for you about this method. Do you have to add any hardware to keep the box on the post or will it be ok just sitting on the cut out part of the post?

I'm making 2 x 6 boxes and I'd like to use this method. I'm not handy enough to do it this way but I'm going to enlist hubby's help.
Also for a 2 x 6 box, if I go with the plywood bottom method, do I need to add additional boards at the bottom for bracing? If so, how many?

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  LittleGardener on 7/26/2011, 4:41 pm

@mckr3441 wrote:Boffer... your instructions are awesome :!: :!: :!:

We're going to make TTs for our 91 year old neighbor who just can't do the row thing anymore.
We have an old desk and an old chest of drawers we were going to put them on.
Probably will be 2x4s. Guess the desk and dresser should hold the weight. What do you think?
Who'da thought: taking an old bed-FRAME, & Drawers, & old metal tables - would serve as perpetual cheers Garden-structures...

This thread with oodles of Suggestion is just the most exciting bounce thing, ever!!
Grateful, I THANK you!!

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  AprilakaCCIL on 7/26/2011, 9:28 pm

Love this very informative thread. Thank you Boffer. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  CarolynPhillips on 8/1/2011, 2:00 pm

I already have 4 Table Top Gardens that are 2x8ft.
A friend was closing her silk flower shop and gave me
5 wooden tables....I want to turn them into TT Gardens.
3 of them are at least 2x 8 ft long= untreated rough cut 1x4s
1 is 4x4.= untreated rough cut 1x4s
1 is 3x4= painted.
I will be adding 1"X 10" sides to box them in But I will not completely fill them up with soil cause I want room for mulch at the top.....
I will have to add some center support.


Did Anyone paint the inside of yours?
Should I paint mine?
I will be painting the outside of them.
I put plastic liner on the inside of my other TTs but I really don't like the plastic and would have to change the way I lined it if I used plastic again.
I would like for the boxes to be healthy and last a very long time but I
personally don't think paint is that harmful==at least not as harmful
as the air I breath. Rolling Eyes

I saw a few subjects on Table Tops but I want to see more.
It is my newest obsession besides growing tomatoes because
I have arthritis = severely. I want to build these gardens before it gets too bad.

Will you post your Table Top Gardens and feed my obsession? Show some that have plants growing in them too. I need veggie ideas. I know squash takes up a lot of space in a table top garden but it is sooooo easy to see those ugly nasty squash bugs so I can kill them with my duct tape.

This is what the tables look like now. I hope they work out.
Any suggestions before I start this construction would be great too.


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To paint or not to paint

Post  hankyknot on 8/2/2011, 10:38 am

Personally I wouldn't paint preferring instead to either build from a more naturally resistant wood such as cedar or using a more natural wood preservative. You could of course consider using a natural "paint" rather than a manufactred oil based product too.

Oh and btw I made 3x3 tabletop gardens mounted on 4x4 sheets of ply and find the 6" shelf all round the edge to be a godsend. It means I get to keep all my stuff at the same height rather than leaving it on the floor and bending down as much to pick stuff up as I ever did gardening at ground level.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  CarolynPhillips on 8/2/2011, 11:48 am

I thought about that too=== a ledge around the tt garden. One of these tables is 2 1/2 feet wide. That would give me a 6 inch shelf on the front if I made the box 2 ft wide. Glad you mentioned it cause I forgot to. Have a million and one projects happening around here. Rabbit cages, chicken coops, goat barn, and my own home.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  boffer on 8/2/2011, 12:02 pm

For those of us trying to utilize every square foot available for growing, the advantages of shelf space pales in comparison to gaining more growing space.

That being said, shelves are wonderful. I made a couple that hang on the side of my TT boxes. They can be moved around from box to box, but I have found the area that seems to be centralized, and I just leave them there. They hold plant tags, markers, trowel, coffee cup, and seed packages, as well as provide a dry writing surface.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  UnderTheBlackWalnut on 8/2/2011, 3:35 pm

I like the idea of shelves too -but will probably rig something up that sits slightly under the table (rather than becomes something I have to lean over)...because at only around 5' tall, my arm's reach is not so long...yea, I'm not short I'm vertically challenged... Smile Boff - I like your idea of a movable 'holder' for all those kind of things - right now mine is one of those plastic bins like you see at the Wal store that has a handle in the middle that folks often put cleaning supplies in. Smile

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

Post  boffer on 8/2/2011, 3:49 pm

@UnderTheBlackWalnut wrote:right now mine is one of those plastic bins like you see at the Wal store that has a handle in the middle that folks often put cleaning supplies in. Smile

I'm pretty sure I know what you mean; I can see one of those with some brackets bolted on, so the brackets slip over the top edge of the box.

I also have a couple large rural mailboxes (the kind next to the street on posts) in the garden areas to hold even more 'stuff'.

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Re: Building a Table Top SFG...some ideas

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