Square Foot Gardening Forum

Hello Guest!
Welcome to the official Square Foot Gardening Forum.
There's lots to learn here by reading as a guest. However, if you become a member (it's free, ad free and spam-free) you'll have access to our large vermiculite databases, our seed exchange spreadsheets, Mel's Mix calculator, and many more members' pictures in the Gallery. Enjoy.


Search
 
 

Display results as :
 

 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Senseless Banter...
by llama momma Today at 7:58 pm

» Now What do I do?
by llama momma Today at 7:45 pm

» Ketchup - Really?
by llama momma Today at 7:43 pm

» parsnips in square foot garden?
by Scorpio Rising Today at 7:08 pm

» Northern California & Coastal Valleys - What are you doing this month?
by Scorpio Rising Today at 6:54 pm

» CANADIAN REGION: What are you doing in September 2016
by Scorpio Rising Today at 6:44 pm

» N&C Midwest: September 2016
by Scorpio Rising Today at 6:21 pm

» Newbie composting questions
by sanderson Today at 4:03 pm

» What are you eating from your garden today?
by trolleydriver Today at 4:03 pm

» compost thermometer
by trolleydriver Today at 9:23 am

» The Research Journey:free-The Gardener’s Guide TO PERFECT GARDEN SOIL
by jimmy cee Today at 8:48 am

» SFG Adventure of a first time gardener in ND
by MrBooker Today at 6:47 am

» Plantoid' s going into hospital ....
by plantoid Today at 6:22 am

» Hello from San Antonio, Tx.
by sanderson Today at 12:53 am

» 17 Everyday Things You've Been Doing Wrong
by has55 Yesterday at 11:28 pm

» Second Year SFG in Canada
by Scorpio Rising Yesterday at 7:51 pm

» What's a good type of lettuce to try for some one who doesn't like lettuce?
by CapeCoddess Yesterday at 11:59 am

» Mid-South: October 2016
by yolos Yesterday at 10:36 am

» In between
by Scorpio Rising 9/28/2016, 8:33 pm

» Tomato Mystery Mix
by sanderson 9/28/2016, 11:26 am

» Easy and Fabulous Crockpot Marinara
by trolleydriver 9/28/2016, 11:03 am

» newbeone
by Cajun Cappy 9/28/2016, 8:59 am

» The SFG Journey-Cover crops
by jimmy cee 9/27/2016, 9:45 pm

» Oh no! My hibiscus moscheutos plant has some roots exposed!
by RJARPCGP 9/27/2016, 9:37 pm

» Tryst with my first DIY SFG
by Mimi2 9/27/2016, 8:12 pm

» New England September 2016
by sanderson 9/27/2016, 7:50 pm

» Soil Blocks: Tutorial In Photos
by sanderson 9/27/2016, 2:57 pm

» Compost
by camprn 9/27/2016, 8:13 am

» Hand Pollination ?
by camprn 9/27/2016, 8:11 am

» The Research Journey:SELF-WATERING SALAD GARDEN COURSE
by has55 9/26/2016, 6:58 pm

Google

Search SFG Forum

Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  AvaDGardner on 2/19/2012, 12:12 pm

Then definitely give them some compost. Steer manure is cheap...$0.98 USD for 1 CU. If you have some of your compost left from making MM, use that. Put it under the paper. If they were raised in compost the paper is their swamp cooler.

Is this in a bin or a pipe like Josh designed?

Yep...those are your most desirable casings below the paper. Congrats!

They move to food and to comfy conditions. They crawl away because the moisture is too little or to much; the temp is too hot (too much food decomposing or the outside temps); the media is different; there is a storm coming; and not enough air.

They will adapt...you just have to help them adjust!

AvaDGardner

Female Posts : 631
Join date : 2012-02-17
Location : Garden Grove, CA (still Zone 10b)

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  AvaDGardner on 2/20/2012, 2:21 am

@GWN wrote:
Is this how its supposed to happen with these multi tray units?

Sorry GWN, I forgot to answer this...

(From an earlier post, above)
@AvaDGardner wrote:...Another advantage are trays with holes that allow the worms to move out of the castings and up into the new food & bedding.

I'll try to get a photo tomorrow of my empty bin.

The bottom is covered in tiny holes in in (3/16"?). When you first start "the ranch" you line the bottom tray with dry sheets of newspaper. This is your barrier. Then you add your media and your worms. And cover them with damp shredded newspaper.

Worms will eventually eat the paper below. The casings fall through to the catch bin. When the first worm tray is full of worms, you set up your second bin with media from the second bin and some food, and place it on top of the bottom bin. The newspaper in the bottom bin touchs the new top bin. The worms move through the holes to the top bin to the food. After a while, all the worms will move up and your bottom bin and catch bin are ready to harvest.

Some leave the non-working bins in place for a while while, allowing more casing to accumulate.

The design I have allows for 15,000 worms with 3 trays.

That's a lot of worms.

A pound of worms (based on a low 600 count per pound) can produce over 57,600 worms in 6 mos.

I'll be taking them out and putting them in the garden. But I do need to keep an eye on not overcrowding! (Who thought worms would lead to being a City planner?)

AvaDGardner

Female Posts : 631
Join date : 2012-02-17
Location : Garden Grove, CA (still Zone 10b)

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  squaredeal on 2/20/2012, 10:49 am

I have a question:

If you leave your bin (either homemade or store bought) outside during the non-winter seasons, do you have any problems with rain getting your worm house too wet?

squaredeal

Female Posts : 192
Join date : 2011-05-09
Location : Indianapolis=6a

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  ericam on 2/27/2012, 8:37 pm

I think you need some shelter from rain, from what I've read it's best to put it under cover like in a carport or under a tree but I'm definately not an expert!

I'm looking at buying a commercial bin very soon, I know I could make one cheaper but I need the system to be as easy to manage as possible as I have two young kids and not a lot of time.

My question is about the worm blankets that they sell, they claim it helps with moisture retention and also keep out fruit fly. Are they worth the money or am I better off using newspaper? I don't understand how they work in a tray system either because wouldn't the blanket stop them going up the level or do they just eat through it? In which case you'd be replacing them all the time..

ericam

Female Posts : 283
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 39
Location : Grenfell, NSW, Australia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  AvaDGardner on 3/19/2012, 1:08 am

Hey Eric...if you haven't bought your commercial system yet, you may want to stay with home made.

I'm wrestling with this too, and I have a big commercial system (multiple trays, holds up to 15k worms). I'm thinking about ranching night crawlers too. I found some at the garden when I was digging around the deep mulch. They are grayish, a lot larger and super wiggly. I transported 3 of them into one of my boxes, LOL.

With worms, less is more. The bigger the system you have, the more care it takes. You'd think it be easier, but it isn't. The in-home systems are probably the easiest. And I've yet to have the worms eat even a day's worth of veggie trash in a week's time...I probably have 1200 worms right now.

We had some pretty harsh rain yesterday. I checked my 'herd' this morning (first time in about 4 days), and there were 2 on the top outside, 1 in my catch basin around the legs, and probably 75 in the basin and 25 in the lid. There were also a lot of hair-sized clear baby ones on the ledge of the lid. They don't like barametric changes.

I decided to check the base, where the legs connect. (It has 5 legs that lock into 5 columns of the catch basin. The columns have super tiny holes in them for air...same size as the holes in the lid). In one leg I found a snail and many slugs (probably why I find slugs in the basin), and in another leg I found clogged with mud dobber nests! I'm glad it was cold and winter and flushed them all out. It was so cold, I could catch flies with chop stick (I use them to remove the worms from the column ribs in the basin). Sounds so Mr Miagi, but it was too cold for them to move!

So Squaredeal...I leave mine bin outside 365. But then, I live in a mediterranean climate. My biggest problem is heat in the summer. It has a lid, so I don't worry about too much moisture getting in. They like it kinda dry...like a well squeezed out sponge. You can tell it is moist, but not wet.

All systems should have a place for the excess liquid to flow. Because as the food decays, as the humidity rises, the moisture in your bin will change too. That liquid is also good for your garden (NOT to be confused with 'worm tea' from castings.)

Worm Blankets? Never heard of them. Over time your bin will develop other creatures too. It's okay. They do no harm. I left my lid off in some mild weather a week or so ago so worms would dig in, and this week I have some flies. No big deal. If I see a slug, I do get rid of it.

I hear Purina makes worm chow. I can't imagine what is in it, and haven't seen it ont he shelves of the pet stores or the big box stores! Talk about a specialty item!

OH GNW! I have your picture!! The black dots are basically support joints, even though the entire thing is one piece. That's how they move between trays.


Ava

AvaDGardner

Female Posts : 631
Join date : 2012-02-17
Location : Garden Grove, CA (still Zone 10b)

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  AvaDGardner on 3/21/2012, 2:16 pm

I'm FRUSTRATED!

I watched a lot of vids on worms and vermiculture last night. And all about homemade bins. Redwormcomposting.com's vids are very informative.

A picture is worth a 1000 words...or a 1000 worms! When I saw his video about Reds by the Gob, I knew I'd been had. And now I understand why Josh counted his - what a great deal his seminar attendees received!

I realized that I did NOT get a pound of worms last month in my purchase. More like 1/3 of a pound. Sure, there was more than a pound weight in the box, but a lot was bedding. They said it was 600-800 worms. At least I paid half-price. And no shipping, because it was local.

And they were the fattest reds I've ever seen.

I just took a good look at my bin. They are primarily on one side (different bedding), fat and juicy, doing their thing. At this point, I would expect (if I had a thousand or even 800) that my bin would filling up and I'd need to add another soon.

I might change the bin to improve the bedding (because it looks like a DMZ line, but it will be at least 2 more months before I need another bin.

AvaDGardner

Female Posts : 631
Join date : 2012-02-17
Location : Garden Grove, CA (still Zone 10b)

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  curio on 3/21/2012, 2:42 pm

I didn't think to count mine when they came in. Perhaps I should have. They seem to be pretty well distributed throughout the bedding in the box and not tons are up around the top at any point, with more being there early in the morning when the lights first are turned on than later in the day.

curio

Posts : 388
Join date : 2012-02-22
Location : Maritime Pacific Northwest zone 8A/B with ugly heat scale

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  llama momma on 3/21/2012, 3:43 pm

AvaD

Worms in shipping can lose 75% of their body weight. That could be the reason you felt "shorted". I weighed the little bag containing worms and bedding and it was over a pound and a half. I didn't count the worms, thought several days of shipping was stressful enough. They are suppose to breed pretty fast so a few months from now I hope you will have all the worms you want. My worm bin is 3 weeks old today and they seem to be pretty stable and eating everything I put in there. I've read where a new worm bin can take 3-4 months to get a good harvest of vermicompost. By June/July it could be a really nice boost for the veggies.

llama momma

Certified SFG Instructor

Female Posts : 4589
Join date : 2010-08-20
Age : 59
Location : Central Ohio zone 6a

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  plantoid on 3/21/2012, 4:53 pm

These recent pictures are from worms found in the garden under a two inch layer of part rotted wet horse manure 7 straw which was laid down under a piece of old carpet at the begining of JANUARY 2012 . They were harvested put in the worm bin at the end of January...

Initally the contents of the bin were a bit too wet and the veg bits etc were not quite at the correct stage of decay for the worms to have a feast on the decay products . I added a couple of hands full of old spent tomato grow bag contents to make it a bit drier and also eased the lid up on some plastic catches so there was plenty of air , I gave it a gentle stir in , covered it in wet pages from some grage sale paperback books and they have not looked back since..

This is how they looked ,, theres a lot more than in the photo , give it another couple of weeks and there will be almost double the number of worms

plantoid

Male Posts : 3599
Join date : 2011-11-09
Age : 65

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  plantoid on 3/21/2012, 4:54 pm

@plantoid wrote:These recent pictures are from worms found in the garden under a two inch layer of part rotted wet horse manure 7 straw which was laid down under a piece of old carpet at the begining of JANUARY 2012 . They were harvested put in the worm bin at the end of January...





Initally the contents of the bin were a bit too wet and the veg bits etc were not quite at the correct stage of decay for the worms to have a feast on the decay products . I added a couple of hands full of old spent tomato grow bag contents to make it a bit drier and also eased the lid up on some plastic catches so there was plenty of air , I gave it a gentle stir in , covered it in wet pages from some grage sale paperback books and they have not looked back since..

This is how they looked ,, theres a lot more than in the photo , give it another couple of weeks and there will be almost double the number of worms

plantoid

Male Posts : 3599
Join date : 2011-11-09
Age : 65

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  quiltbea on 3/21/2012, 5:11 pm

I actually counted my worms when I did the 2nd compost haul the first summer. I counted 2053 (I may have missed one or a dozen) worms and there was still room in my first floor condo for many more so they don't take up much room. I started with 500 the spring before.


quiltbea

Female Posts : 4610
Join date : 2010-03-21
Age : 74
Location : Southwestern Maine Zone 5A

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  littlejo on 3/21/2012, 5:40 pm

AvaD,

Worm sellers all will tell you different things.

When you put in more food, just put it on the other side from the worms, cover with a piece of paper or cardboard. The worms will find it! Don't stir up the food. Red worms, if that is what you have, like there food on top. Moving the feed area each time will cause them to work throughout the bin.

Do you see any tiny worms? They will make babies fast.

Jo

littlejo

Female Posts : 1528
Join date : 2011-05-04
Age : 62
Location : Cottageville SC 8b

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Home made worm-bins

Post  Tamara Calero on 3/21/2012, 5:53 pm

I have a question I am thinking about making a homemade worm-bin but how do I use the castings once I remove them? Do I mix them in with my soil....I'm still learning.

Thanks

Tamara Calero

Female Posts : 6
Join date : 2012-03-21
Location : Palm Bay Florida

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  littlejo on 3/21/2012, 6:04 pm

I just mix in to MM in the bed. I look to see if a plant that needs a boost. It's full of nutrients. Jo

littlejo

Female Posts : 1528
Join date : 2011-05-04
Age : 62
Location : Cottageville SC 8b

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  Boz on 3/21/2012, 6:10 pm

I add about 2 cups per square as I plant and later in the season as needed. About 20% of my planting mix is vermicompost.

Boz

Male Posts : 109
Join date : 2011-11-20
Location : Loveland, Colorado zone 5a

View user profile http://lovelandwormery.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  plantoid on 3/21/2012, 6:13 pm

I'm aiming to use it in a bucket of blended composted animal manures with associated beddings and composted veg matter .

As I have seven individual compost bins with different things in them I'll be using a 16 ounce bean can of each compost and one of worm cast , well blended up in a bucket to re vitalize each square foot as it become empty before the next crop is sown/planted in that square at the rate like mel suggests of one reqasonable trowel full per square.

I'll also most likely be adding a three bean cans of vermiculite per bucket ful of blend for my newly made beds are showing signs of the initial charge of MM settling down and they will need some form of topping up .

plantoid

Male Posts : 3599
Join date : 2011-11-09
Age : 65

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  llama momma on 3/21/2012, 6:14 pm

I've read 2 ways
Mix at a 15-20% of the soil mix.
Or layer it about 1/2 inch or so around the plant and water it in. The stuff is suppose to be potent and tends to be a little salty and should be mixed. According to the book anyway! I'm sure those with practical experience will chime in soon. Before reading that stuff I simply put what I felt like on my houseplants and they never looked this good in the past 5 years.

llama momma

Certified SFG Instructor

Female Posts : 4589
Join date : 2010-08-20
Age : 59
Location : Central Ohio zone 6a

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  littlejo on 3/21/2012, 7:30 pm

I haven't read any books, and I don't put in straight, for I don't have that many worms, but I planted 1 African Violet in just worm castings(and the soil that was on the roots) and it has been steady blooming ever since.



On another note: any chemist type foks out there? I have a refractomer that I used for the saltwater tanks. Is there a way/procedure that I can test the salt level of my worm castings?



Jo

littlejo

Female Posts : 1528
Join date : 2011-05-04
Age : 62
Location : Cottageville SC 8b

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  B00kemdano on 3/21/2012, 7:49 pm

I found some worms in my yard, so I decided to keep them and make a homemade worm bin. I put the wet strips of newspaper in there with them, along with some kitchen veggie scraps. They seemed to like the apple core, but maybe not the carrot peels.

I didn't put any dirt in with them, and they've made a bunch of castings in the last few weeks, though not yet covering the bottom of the bin.

Do I need to clean out the bin once in a while, or can i let the castings pile up?

B00kemdano

Male Posts : 131
Join date : 2012-02-12
Age : 43
Location : Huntsville, AL

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  llama momma on 3/21/2012, 8:00 pm

Do you have any compost? They can feed off of that too, add it to your newspaper strips and you can throw in some soil for grit too. I stored compost from last autumn, opened it up and there were regular ol earthworms so I have kept them, added paper and cardboard and throw some old food scrapes in it. I still have them but the compost is now the consistancy of moist brownie mix, sorry for that gross analogy, anyway I probably should put them in another container with fresher compost and soil as the castings are suppose to be toxic to them.

llama momma

Certified SFG Instructor

Female Posts : 4589
Join date : 2010-08-20
Age : 59
Location : Central Ohio zone 6a

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Bits and pieces of advice

Post  nancydobs on 3/28/2012, 8:55 pm

I've had good luck with homemade bins made from the big Rubbermaid totes. Never put a spigot in, because according to redwormcomposting.com, if you've got liquid coming out, your bin is too wet and may be in danger of becoming anaerobic (not enough oxygen). I've read that worms LOVE corrugated cardboard torn into bits or shreds -- they can hide in the damp spaces in the cardboard. I usually use a mix of cardboard, newspaper, shredded egg cartons, and brown paper bags shredded. Cardboard is much easier to tear up if you wet it first!

Get the bin ready with 6 to 8 inches of bedding, and put some rotten stuff from your veggie drawer on top -- or freeze some veggie scraps and add those. The worms don't actually eat the FOOD, they eat the decomposed matter, so add the food a good week or two before you get your worms or they'll have nothing to eat when they arrive. If you're in a hurry, add some slices or small pieces of melon; it decomposes quickly. They also love squash. Anything shredded decomposes real fast.

I keep my bin in the laundry room, and over time have decided not to add banana peels, as fruit flies seem to SWARM out of them after a few days. I've read you can freeze fruit peels first, and it will kill the fruit fly larvae. I also had more insects than I wanted after adding leaves; the bin just SWARMED with bugs. Though they are not harmful to the bin or worms (contrary, most are beneficial) it was GROSS indoors, so now I stick with newspaper, cardboard, and other paper goods for bedding.

I sprinkle just a handful of vermicompost around my plants (indoor or outdoor) and it does WONDERS. I put just a handful on an old tired Christmas cactus last fall, and this spring it had 6 inches of bright green new growth. You don't have to worry about "burning" your plants -- the castings are not high in nitrogen, just NUTRIENTS. You can really spread them thin and still see amazing results.

Better to add too little food than too much. Fine to leave home for a week or two with no worries about your worms dying from hunger. They will even consume the bedding which is soaked with decomposed matter.

If the bin starts looking "muddy" in the bottom (a problem with plastic bins -- too much moisture!) just add more DRY bedding and mix it in with your hands or a trowel. Wear rubber gloves if it's too gross, and break up the muck into smaller pieces. The dry bedding will fix things in a week or so. Try not to mix food into the bedding - it should stay mostly on top, covered with no more than 2 inches of bedding or just a layer of paper or cardboard.

No one wants to help with dishes at my house. They can't figure out if the leftovers should go in the compost pile, the worm bin, or the chicken coop! Hee hee.

OK, I'm so weird that I harvest my vermicompost by dumping the WHOLE BIN out on an old shower curtain on the picnic table. I have new bedding ready with some old food in it, and put that back in the bin. The worms dive away from light, and it is strangely fun to skim off the compost and put it in a bucket, throwing any worms back into the new bin, along with anything not yet fully decomposed. Eventually when you get to the bottom of the pile, it will be mostly worms, and you can dump them back into the fresh bedding. I know there are easier ways, but it is fun to see what's "happening" in the bin, seeing up close all the little babies, cocoons, and insects that are helping things along.

nancydobs

Female Posts : 3
Join date : 2012-03-28
Location : Northern Wisconsin

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  The Cat's Other Mother on 3/28/2012, 10:22 pm

I made a two-tier rubbermaid bin for my first try, and except for about a dozen worms who escaped to suicide thru the air holes, it seemed to work very well. I then moved them to a single tier wooden bin that I made, but it dried out very easily, and I didn't pay enough attention and my worms all died. I decided to just stick to the outdoor compost bins, since worms come and work on that without my having to worry about it.

I have two a wood bin and a plastic bin for anyone in the Atlanta, GA area who would like them.

The Cat's Other Mother

Female Posts : 142
Join date : 2010-05-17
Location : Decatur, GA, Zone 7B

View user profile

Back to top Go down

question about worms

Post  GunnarC on 5/28/2012, 7:50 pm

So, I looked up prices on worms. They can be a little pricey online for a nervous novice. From what I can gather on this thread, dirt worms are not reccomended, but some times work. So what about the worms sold as bait in walmart? I looked at the container, but it did not mention what kind of worms they were. I'm looking to start small, maybe two 5 gallon buckets because I already have them. I'm trying to start this on the cheap. So I thought the bait worms would be perfect. Thanks in advance.

GunnarC

Male Posts : 2
Join date : 2012-02-16
Age : 40
Location : Charlotte, NC

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  walshevak on 5/28/2012, 11:00 pm

I was impatient when I made my bin. Wanted worms immediately. So I went to the marina and bought a container of red wigglers. Cost me 25 cents per worm for 12. So I ordered a pound of worms for $35. And bait worms were not the same.

Kay

____________________________

A WEED IS A FLOWER GROWING IN THE WRONG PLACE
Elizabeth City, NC
Find more about Weather in Elizabeth City, NC
Click for weather forecast

walshevak

Certified SFG Instructor

Female Posts : 4302
Join date : 2010-10-17
Age : 73
Location : wilmington, nc zone 8

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  malefacter on 5/29/2012, 1:12 pm

i have a worm factory 360 and i like it but im thinking that a worm in wold have ben be a better choice and its less expensive also there is a homemade version that im thinking of making and adding European Nightcrawlers in it http://www.instructables.com/id/Worm-bin-bag-for-indoor-vermicomposting-and-easy-s/

this one is cool but i dont want to make a table http://hypernatural.com/digestive.html

the bin blanket is a piece of cloth or layers of newspapper that you lay on top of the food it acts as a bio filter ti helps with oder keeps things moist and makes it harder for flys to get in i use 2 layers of an old 100% cotton towel cut to fit the bin just lift it off add food and replace if things seem dry water thru the towel

malefacter

Posts : 84
Join date : 2012-05-15
Location : Phx AZ

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Home made worm-bins vs shop brought bins

Post  Sponsored content Today at 7:58 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum