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New Garden Construction/Planning

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New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  JK on 1/6/2012, 12:21 pm

This will be my first time gardening and I am getting ready to build my first box.

First question: In the book Mel talks about 'if' you plan to put a bottom on the box. I was curious as to the pros and cons of having a bottom vs being straight on the ground. My soil is pretty much 100% good ole georgia red clay.

Second question: Budget is a bit of a issue and the current material I have for the garden happens to be 4 4ft long peices 2x12. I know the standard is 6" deep but can be as deep as desired. Would it make much if any difference for the plants first starting out getting sunshine if I used the 12" boards and only filled it to about 8" or so with MM? I actually do intend to eventually fill it to the top with MM so i can rotate root crops easier.

Last question... Any tips or ideas for different plants for a first timer who would like to hopefully see a good yield of crops? As I learn I hope to greatly expand and maximize crop yield per sqft but given im probably only going to have 16sqft this first time I figure just whatever puts out a good bit would be an encouraging start.

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  UnderTheBlackWalnut on 1/6/2012, 1:22 pm

Hi and welcome!

My boxes are 6" with plywood bottoms. I know many people use weedcloth or some other fairly strong wire mesh bottom. Some people with open boxes use cardboard, newspaper or weed fabric under them.

The reasons I've seen to use bottoms are a) keep weeds from growing up through native soil, b) keep critters, like voles, from digging up into your beds from the native soil, c) make the boxes easier to move, and d) to keep the MM from coming into contact with the native soil if you have issues like with contaminants or diseases in your soil.

I chose plywood because I am growing in the shadow of black walnut which secretes a chemical from the roots that is poisonous to some plants. This way I didn't have to worry about that. If I didn't have that situation, I would probably build similar to the way Boffer does. If you search for Boffer, Tabletops, H3 (Heated Hoop House), you'll get some great ideas on how to build some pretty neat beds that you can put on your wishlist. Smile

I would suggest that you put a "filler" in the bottom of your boxes to help with drainage and raise your MM up closer to the top of your box, and then make the top 6" your MM. I've seen other posters use sand, but I'm sure someone will chime in. You really don't need more than 6" of MM for most crops. I know it's hard to believe, but after seeing what my tomato roots looked like when I pulled them this fall, all you need is 6".

Since MM can be somewhat pricey when you are in the beginning stages, people prefer to put top hats or use small beds/portions of beds that are deeper for the necessary root plants, rather than have the extra expense of using more MM than you need in their entire garden.

I'm only just starting my second year, so I am still learning a LOT. I'm sure other posters, like Boffer, who is an expert on bed-building, will be along shortly to chime in.

As for plants, I'm afraid I can't address that because my climate is so different from yours. I know some of the Southern Gardeners will be along shortly and be able to respond to what crops will give you good yield in your part of the US. Smile
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  BackyardBirdGardner on 1/6/2012, 1:53 pm

1- bottoms make it harder for burrowing critters to get in. however, it also makes it harder for worms. members of the forum use everything from newspaper, carpet, etc, for bottoms when killing grass and keeping weeds from poking through.

2- shouldn't be an issue at all with sunlight. if it's what you have, it's what you have. no need to top it off, either. mel himself says the vast majority of the time, anything more than 6 inches is wasting money, too.

3- two things come to mind... a) go into the General SFG forum and look at the Rookie Topics at the top in the "sticky" section. great examples of different crops there. b) you can plant some things closer than others. i plant my lettuces ridiculously close...after 3 years of following the book's spacing. i get a better yield at 9 per square with leaf lettuces. but, to compensate, i harvest more frequently and earlier.

all in all, though, i would say to play your first year by the book. next year you can experiment around with things. in the meantime, read the forum all season long. you will learn so much in one growing season you be amazed.
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  Furbalsmom on 1/7/2012, 3:25 pm

JK,

I think BackyardBirdGardener and UnderTheBlackWalnut have both given you good information on some pros and cons for using plywood bottoms on your SFG.

As to what to grow?
Check out page 44 of ALL NEW SQUARE FOOT GARDENING, All That in One Box, Mel lists the harvest you could acheive from just your spring planting. His suggestions are cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, various types of lettuce, swiss chard, spinach (it always takes more spinach leaves than you think for either salad or cooked spinach, carrots, beets and radishes. That is quite a selection from one small box, and is just the early spring planting.

Also check pages 252 - 259, Planting Charts, determine what you and your family would like to grow. A single 4 X 4 limits the amount you can plant, so make sure you plant what your family will eat. It is amazing how many Sugar Snap Peas (you eat the whole pod) you can grow in a Spring garden. My personal preference is Sugar Snap Peas over "garden" type peas that are shelled because of the increased amount of edible harvest you get.

Congratulations on your first year SFGning. We are glad you joined us and we look forward to hearing about your progress.
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  southern gardener on 1/7/2012, 7:34 pm

would you be able to cut your 2x12 in half to 2x6? you'd have twice as many boxes! cheers cheers The Mel's Mix is the most expensive part of SFG, so I'd rather have twice as many boxes 6" deep instead of fewer with 12" of MM. Just an idea. Good luck with whatever you decide, and welcome!! glad you\'re here
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  miinva on 1/7/2012, 8:07 pm

Welcome to the forum! Smile

Personally, I like my soil at least 8 inches deep, but that's more because I think I get a better harvest of tomatoes in that depth than anything else.

I would recommend cowpeas (also called southern peas), which are actually legumes and not peas at all. I found that out after planting them like peas and wondering why it didn't work. *giggle* Pole beans give a great harvest too. Currant tomatoes are tiny, but they burst with flavor and produce prolifically. There are both red and yellow currant tomatoes, although I've only grown red. Malibar spinach is really prolific too. Red malibar has smaller leaves than green malibar, and it can be eaten like spinach (pick it small for salad, pick it larger to steam). It's also fun to plant herbs, which are both beautiful and useful, whether they attract beneficials or repel pests. I've had great luck with banana peppers too, which are delicious sauteed.

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  walshevak on 1/7/2012, 11:13 pm

Welcome, you will find this method of gardening addictive.

snip""Second question: Budget is a bit of a issue and the current material I have for the garden happens to be 4 4ft long peices 2x12. I know the standard is 6" deep but can be as deep as desired. Would it make much if any difference for the plants first starting out getting sunshine if I used the 12" boards and only filled it to about 8" or so with MM? I actually do intend to eventually fill it to the top with MM so i can rotate root crops easier.""

I think this is a great use of available materials. Start with this bed and 6-7" of Mels Mix and grow this year. I predict you will like the method so well you will want more beds. Later you can add another bed or two and make them the normal 6" and then you will already have a deep bed ready to fill with additional Mels Mix for the deep rooted carrots, parsnips, any others that do better with a deeper depth. So many of us are having to go the other way and add a deep bed to our plan or top hats on shallow beds for our carrots.


I've had good harvests with spring greens in particular lettuce, kale swiss chard and sugar snap peas. The chard and kale also made it through the neglect and intense heat of last summer. Peppers and eggplant also produced well during the summer.
The other prolific producer was pole beans. The asian long beans did very well and because of their length, a handfull made a meal for 4. Kentucky Wonder pole beans planted in Aug were still producing till Thanksgiving even after a light frost (this crazy winter) zone 8A


Kay

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  JK on 1/9/2012, 9:25 am

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I think im going to just use cardboard or newspaper for a bottom. Free material and I dont think there is a critter alive who could burrow through this clay. Only place Ive ever lived that didnt have a single mole tunnel dug through the yard.

I am going to try and swing enough mix to fill it to the top but if I dont I will worry more about getting the mix right than filling it up. Once I decide on all the plants I will post a layout so I can make sure I am spacing things properly for sun/shade. Thanks again for the help, everywhere I read on this forum people are always great Smile

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  quiltbea on 1/9/2012, 1:13 pm

I personally prefer the 12" deep boxes because I like long carrots and parsnips and with rotating my crops year to year, they will take a turn in all the boxes eventually. Also, potatoes need the depth as well.

Weeds lying dormant down deep that never get turned or see the light of day won't grow thru your soil, as a rule. There are some grasses, tho, that are relentless. Using paper and cardboard at the bottoms should discourage all but the worst of them.

Good luck and have fun with your garden. I'm sure you'll see all the benefits of going this route and enjoy your great-tasting harvests.
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  staf74 on 1/9/2012, 1:44 pm

Hi JK,

Sorry I missed your welcome !!! You 'snuck' through the cracks...LOL. You can see we have a friendly bunch around here. Looks like you sit right on the border of the Middle and Lower South regions. You can stop by the middle south forum and look around at some of the local topics there. You will find I have placed some vital info/planting dates etc in a "sticky" near the top to help you but the book is the true point of reference for us here.

http://squarefoot.creatingforum.com/f9-middle-south

I'm not too far from you and I have that clay too !!! YUCK. Do you have invasive bermuda grass? The critters might not like the clay but the bermuda thrives on it. I put a weedblock directly over scalped grass then laid down a few inches of sand and gravel and then placed the SFG on top (with another weedblock under the bed as standard). Those steps did cost extra $$ and effort but I have had NO bermuda in my beds in almost 3 years.

But as a $$ saver, surely try the cardboard if thats what you have on hand Very Happy Do what you can to get your garden up and running this first season. You will learn a ton from experimentation and trial and error alone.

Good yielding for a fist timer....DEFFO.....Radishes. They are harvest-able in 30 days and you can get TWO crops in the spring in one square if you time it right...that's 32 plants plus the greens can be added to salads also. Not bad for one Square eh? Lettuces are good producers in the SFG for the space they take and some squeeze 9 per sq. Stagger the plantings and you will have fresh lettuce all spring.

Let me know If I can help you out any. I have videos posted in the middle south region also that might help you visualize your garden.

TTFN !
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  yolos on 1/10/2012, 12:27 am

Welcome to our forum. Its nice to have another red clay georgian posting here. I am in Brooks, Ga. Just north of Griffin. I tried SFG in Oct of 2011 with a small 4x4 raised bed with fall veggies. What a pleasure it was to work in Mel's Mix. I was so tired of using a pick ax to break up the red clay (or a gas powered tiller bouncing over the clay). I just scrapped out about 2" of red clay from my standard garden and am planning on adding about 500 sq feet of raised beds this spring (and maybe summer and fall before I get all set up).

No animal can get thru the red clay into the bottom of your boxes. Just use the cardboard in the bottom to keep weeds out the first year. I only had to pull out a couple of wind blown weeds from my raised bed this fall.

I am now trying to decide on an irrigation system for the beds I will be building. The Middle Ga heat and drought are brutal.
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Plastic Bottoms?

Post  Komanui on 1/10/2012, 4:39 pm

Aloha -

I am new to the forum and to SFG. Would
plastic with holes poked in it work instead
of weed mesh? Or would the plastic retain
too much moisture and retard drainage?

Thank you very much !!
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  staf74 on 1/10/2012, 5:28 pm

Hi Komanui,

You might fall through the cracks here with an official welcome by piggybacking on this post but welcome to the forum anyhow Very Happy . Please post some more when you can and let us know of your progress. I'm sure that the plastic would interfere somewhat but perhaps that depends on the size of the holes. Do you own a copy of the "ANSFG" book?
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  janezee on 1/11/2012, 3:03 am

JK,
Welcome!

You will never say, "Gee, I wish I had less MM in those boxes."
I love deeper boxes, and am adding to my height next year. Yeah, 6" works, but I love tomatoes, and they like a little more depth. And they keep crowding my carrots. (The lamb may lie down with the lion, but at least one of them isn't going to get a good night's sleep.)

I'm adding 2x4's to the tops of my beds and adding 3 more inches of MM.
Hang in there, carrots!

j
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  janezee on 1/11/2012, 3:06 am

Komanui,
Aloha!

Why would you want to use plastic? Is this on the ground or in a TT?
Are you keeping the soil in, or the weeds out?

J
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  Komanui on 1/12/2012, 1:37 am

Staf74 & janezee, thank you for the replies !!
I do own ANSFG & I was trying to both keep the
weeds down and the soil in; I'm placing cinder
blocks on the ground and the area I live in has
etremely hardy California grass. So I thought
that plastic would better retard the weeds & keep
the soil in. But I changed my design slightly and am going
to dig out the grass and use weed cloth.
Thanks again !!
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Possible Layout - Plan

Post  JK on 1/31/2012, 10:39 am





Never posted a picture before so maybe this will work... Simple layout in excel that i print screened and put into an image. When you click to see full size image I think it works, still a little hard to see though. I plan to build a trellis at the north side of each box.

Any thoughts or problems with plant layout or spacing or even plant selection? Im pretty much open to anything at this point. Number per plants is based off the spacing in Mel's book if I looked at everything right.

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  Furbalsmom on 1/31/2012, 1:48 pm

Looks good JK. Nice planning for the vertical plants.

My only suggestion is for convenience, you might want to put the carrots and onions in the middle as they are longer term crops and then you don't need to reach over them everytime you want to harvest a couple of radishes or some spinach or lettuce leaves from the outside edges.

Are you growing bush type beans and peas? Love them!
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  JK on 1/31/2012, 3:09 pm

Thanks, I will move them around a little.

Im not sure what kind yet but yes I am going to try the bush peas and beans since the spacing allows for more. Any recommendations for type? Only beans and peas I have ever dealt with come from the store so I am at a loss as to what kind to even start with. I would like some that are hopefully good producers and that I could harvest/prepare relatively easily.

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  jpatti on 1/31/2012, 4:20 pm

I've never grown bush beans or peas, but have noted in seed catalogs that my favorite green bean, Kentucky Blue, comes in a bush variety. I'd also recommend a Romano type as they are particularly yummy.

In both cases, I am referring to fresh beans; if you're looking for dry beans, I like the Calypso best. I don't grow standards like pintos, navy beans, black beans, etc. cause they're just so cheap to buy.

The only peas I grow are sugar snaps and sometimes snow peas, and both are poles, so dunno what to tell you. I don't like English peas and am too lazy to shell them. Wink

IMO, the difference in number of plants is not significant. You can plant 9 bush or 8 pole. Bush plants mostly grow all at once and then stop. Pole beans keep producing the entire season until killed by frost if you keep them picked. So you get a bigger yield from the poles, and more spread out through the season.

The issue is more that you only have so much vertical growing space and other things may be more of a priority for you.

Someday I need to build a 1 by 50 box so I can grow all the vertical crops I want. Wink
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  JK on 1/31/2012, 4:32 pm

Space is definitly an issue just starting out. Id love to get as much yield from the garden as I can... not even built and Im already chaffing at the limits lol. I am looking for fresh, I dont think im going to be worried about growing dry type beans anytime soon. To easy to buy and to many other goodies to plant.

Trellis space is definitly at a premium. I absolutly love tomatos and cucumbers, wish there was more room for squash....

I have gotten all of my materials except the trellis material and the fifth type of compost. Slowly inching my way to build time bounce

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  rrsmith60 on 1/31/2012, 6:17 pm

All advice sounds good to me.

I may of missed it in the previous postings, but I ALWAYS put wire cloth (hardware cloth ½”) on the bottom of my boxes to keep out those %**&#@$$% moles from eating my garden.

Don’t know if you have sub-terrainial critters out your way, but you might consider it.

I didn’t think they would be a problem here until after my first season.

Had to take out all the MM and redo the boxes for season 2. Five seasons later, no loss to underground varmints.cheers
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  JK on 2/1/2012, 8:39 am

The critters are certainly around the area but where I am now it wont be a problem. My soil is such hard packed clay those moles would need more than even nature provides to get through. Im going to put down newspaper under the beds to begin with and let that be it. Hopefully there wont be any complications.

In mels book I see the full wire cage that he puts over a box to keep out critters... is there a way to modify that so it will fit onto a box that has a trellis set up on one end? Or will they simply grow through it and go on the trellis with no problem?

I dont have the funds to add a fence to the project and I have a very regular traffic of deer directly where my garden is going.

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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  llama momma on 2/1/2012, 9:07 am

JK
You mentioned Mel's critter cover and using a trellis at the same time. Same problem here. I slid the critter cover away from the trellis so the tomatoes, cukes, and beans could freely climb up. At the opposite end the critter cover then hangs off the end of the box making an opening. I put cinder blocks under the critter frame it to block off the opening. But now we're back to the exposed trellised plants. I attached a small bungee cord from the cage to chicken wire around the trellis, around a U post or two to the opposite side of the cage. Simply detach the bungee to tend to the trellised plants. I've got a picture somewhere to show you. I'll look around for it and post. It's not pretty but it Was 100% critter proof. One day I'll just nicely fence in the whole area. At the time I was stuck and needed a quick solution with whatever I had on hand.
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Re: New Garden Construction/Planning

Post  JK on 2/1/2012, 10:44 am

Thanks that would be great Smile Im terrible without visual aids lol.

Only thing Im missing now is my conduit and netting for the trellis, one more bag of vermiculite, and that elusive fifth type of compost...

A co-worker may be bringing me some horse manure by but I dont know that I trust it to go in to my mix without aging/composting it for a month or two. Im still trying different feed and seed stores to hopefully stumble across something new. So far I have gotten Cow, Hen, Worm, and Mushroom.

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